Sue Jews For Jesus
I saw a couple of Jews for Jeebus leafletting this morning at the 72nd St. station, and instantly thought of Brad Pilcher’s brilliant op-ed on why Jews should sue them. Chizzicheck it.
Man, we should sue the Kabbalah Learning Center too.
I don’t see what all the animosity is towards the Jews for Jesus group.
It’s a group of people that share a common ideology. It’s great that in this country, you are not forced into any one religion. You are free to make your own choice. You don’t even have to stick with the religion you were born with.
Each convert found something in JfJ that they were missing in Judasim. Somehow you fault JfJ for this? Perhaps Judaism just didn’t work for these people. That is possible you know…
Free will is a good thing, so chill out.
hijacking someone’s religion and purporting yourselves to be jews (which you no longer are once you accept “the new covenant”), then leafletting in subways saying that jews who don’t accept jesus aren’t really jews, is disgusting.
free will is a good thing. cultural theft and dissemination of lies is not. it’s technically libel.
Are they not free to believe whatever they want?
To you it’s a dissemination of lies simply because you disagree. Their belief in Judaism is messianic. Who is to say that one is more right than another.
Look at what you wrote. You first declare them to not be real jews, and then condemn them for trying to say that someone else isn’t a real jew.
You each have your own defintion of what a “real jew” is, and when you push your belief on them, you are just as bad as you think they are.
And think about it, is it really a hijacking? Really think about it for a second.
Look at it this way: A white person is walking around calling himself black, and saying that black people aren’t really black at all. Then a black person walks up and says, “Shut up cracker. Your ass is white.” Is the black person “doing the same thing” as the white one?
It is hijacking. It’s taking something and twisting it into something else.
If that’s your defintion of hijacking, then muslim and christian religions are “hijacking” jewery too. They took the pieces of Judaism that they liked and agreed with, but interpreted the same stuff differently than traditional judaism.
Your analogy is flawed because it assumes that you are correct and your definition of Judaism is indisputable. Truth is, religion is all based on faith, not fact.
The Jewish relgiion is NOT based on “anti-jesus”. It is based on the comming of the messiah and the covenant with g-d. Believing in Jesus does not inherently contradict judaism.
Rememeber the story you posted a while back, “Eat your vegetables, Nazi’s were bad.” It stressed that Judaism is defined by it’s ideas, not by being opposing to nazi’s, Jesus, or anything else.
They are allowed to have different interpretations of the Torah, and if those interpretations lead them to believe in Jesus, then so be it.
That does not inherently make them more or less Jewish than you.
Don’t you see that you are repeating the same stuff about them, that they say to you? “You don’t believe in MY form of Judaism, so you are not really Jewish.”
Where is all this anger really coming from? Have you been so ingrained to attack anything that contradicts your beliefs? You can’t be so sensitive about everything related to jewery, otherwise you will take everything personal. This ties into the whole philosophy that if you don’t support all Israeli government actions, you are anti-semetic.
Your analogy is flawed because it assumes that you are correct and your definition of Judaism is indisputable. Truth is, religion is all based on faith, not fact.
the tenets of jewish practice are not based in faith, they are based in a system of law. if you do not submit to those laws, you are not practicing judaism. discussion of “emunah” — faith — enters a completely different realm of judaism which is much more debatable, because it is not concretized in scripture, as jewish law is in the talmud and the shulchan aruch.
The Jewish relgiion is NOT based on “anti-jesus”. It is based on the comming of the messiah and the covenant with g-d.
annngh! wrong! messianism does not enter into the jewish tradition until well into the prophets. there is no mention of, nor even “setup” for, the messiah in the pentateuch (the five books of moses). messianism developed as a means of providing hope to jewish people living under roman occupation in the first century. countless “charismatic leaders” were believed to be the messiah long before and long after yeshuah (jesus), most recently being the lubavitcher rebbe, menachem mendel schneerson.
Believing in Jesus does not inherently contradict judaism.
it absolutely does, because belief in jesus, for one, means accepting jesus as lord and savior, ie., accepting jesus as god, which is a direct violation of the 1st and 2nd commandments: “i am your god who took you out of egypt,” ie. “i am god, the only god;” and “before you, you shall have no other gods but me.” thus belief in jesus means that you belive in either a duplicity or a trinity of god, which is no longer monotheistic, but rather, as christianity stands, a merging of roman polytheism with jewish ethical monotheism.
further, jesus negates the covenant of abraham and replaces it with his covenant (“dying for your sins”), and thus christians are not ritually circumcized (which actuates the covenant), nor are they required to follow torah law, such as keeping kosher (which jesus says you don’t have to do), or keeping the sabbath (which abandons the 10th commandment).
Rememeber the story you posted a while back, “Eat your vegetables, Nazi’s were bad.” It stressed that Judaism is defined by it’s ideas, not by being opposing to nazi’s, Jesus, or anything else.
just because i post something doesn’t mean i agree with its conclusions. being jewish means being an iconoclast, which means SMASHING IDOLS, such as jesus (just as abraham did). at least, that’s the definition offered by the encyclopeadia judaica.
also, i might add, that many jewish laws and traditions were established to counter pagan practices. tattoos and body modification are prohibited because pagans forced their children to, for example, poke huge holes in their lips, stick bones through their noses, or tattoo hundreds of little dots on their faces, just like they do in africa still today. this was considered barbaric. jews also started sacrificing animals to oppose human sacrifice rituals practiced by pagans. jews pioneered ethical monotheism to counter idol worship, practiced by pagan tribes. jews have a system of kashruth which requires that animals be treated humanely even through their slaughter, whereas they felt, for example, that dropping a rock on a terrified animal’s head was barbaric. jews have a sabbath because they believed that forcing a person to work 7 days a week was barbaric.
…and so on, and so on. judaism is very much defined by what we oppose, as ethical monotheists committed to a system of law and morality.
…another example i just thought of: jews used to pray fully prostrated, just as muslims do today. but when mohammed co-opted that practice of prayer, the jews adopted the practice of praying while standing, just so that they would not be like the muslims. why? because torah demands that jews do not act like non-jews and that they distinguish themselves for the other nations of the earth.
You base everything on the fundamental belief that your interpretation of the Torah is the only correct interpretation.
I understand that there are many ways of interpreting Jesus’s teachings, yet I don’t believe one group is “more christian” than another. Or worse yet, that one group is “not really christian.”
Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation and beliefs. That doesn’t make one person wrong and another correct. These people have interpreted the Torah and Jesus’s teachings in their own way that they believe in. It may seem like a contradiction to you, but that is no reason to blast them.
To them, there is no contradiction. You define Judaism as being iconoclast, and then define Jesus as an icon. They don’t see him as an icon, but rather the messiah that the prophets spoke of.
I would really like to think that there is more to practicing Judaism than following laws and smashing idols. The jewish faith and culture is much more rich and fulfilling than just not eating cheeseburgers.
I didn’t know that there was no setup for the messiah in the pentateuch, and I’m suprised to hear that.
Lastly, what happens when another major religion emerges where people pray while standing, will all Jews have to stand on their heads while praying? In every temple I’ve been to (orthodox, conservative, and reformed), the vast majority of the time people are sitting (as in church). Can you explain that one a bit more?
You base everything on the fundamental belief that your interpretation of the Torah is the only correct interpretation.
that’s nonsense, because i’m not interpreting torah here. i’m just telling it like it is. interpreting torah means deciding what, for example, is the moral of the story of abraham sacrificing isaac. interpreting the torah means trying to figure out why homosexuality is prohibited. just saying that the torah prohibits homosexuality, however, isn’t making an interpretation, it is stating fact: “a man should not lie with a man as he does a woman.”
to quote bill hicks, “They believe the Bible is the exact word of God — then they change the Bible! Pretty presumptuous, huh? ‘I think what God meant to say–‘ I have never been that confident.” …that would qualify as interpretation. just saying what “god says,” however, is just stating fact.
I understand that there are many ways of interpreting Jesus’s teachings, yet I don’t believe one group is “more christian” than another. Or worse yet, that one group is “not really christian.”
you know what, there are plenty of jews who are very familiar with the teachings of jesus, myself included, who can agree with some of the premeses put forth in the new testament. but we don’t worship nor pray to jesus, we don’t renounce the first convenant, and we don’t “compliment” our judaism, as it were, with christian mythology. when you cross the line into worshipping jesus, i’m sorry but you are no longer jewish. period. end of story. fact is fucking fact. accept it or take a freaking hike.
Everyone is entitled to their own interpretation and beliefs. That doesn’t make one person wrong and another correct.
having your own beliefs and your own interpretations of things are fine, but basing your assertions upon distortions or blatant disregard for facts is simply retardulous. “i believe that jesus is the messiah, and that i can believe that, worship jesus as god, and believe in the new testament, and still be jewish.” if you believe that, factually speaking–not interpretatively speaking–you are no longer jewish. period. you’re christian. that’s jewish LAW, torah FACT, not interpretation.
These people have interpreted the Torah and Jesus’s teachings in their own way that they believe in. It may seem like a contradiction to you, but that is no reason to blast them.
when you get in my face in the subway station on my way to work in the morning trying to solicit my soul by telling me i’m going to burn in hell because i “missed the bus” by not accepting jesus as the messiah, mofucka i’ll blast you down a flight of stairs. fuck all missionaries right in the fucking ear. look at every indigenous culture in the history of the world and then who came and ravaged and destroyed everything they had, all in the name of jesus…fucking missionaries. pogroms, crusades, inquisitions, holocausts–all the work of religious missionaries. hitlerism was based on lutheran antisemitism which was an extension of protestant missionaryism. so, jfj can go fuck themselves, as can all other christian missionaries. thanks.
To them, there is no contradiction. You define Judaism as being iconoclast, and then define Jesus as an icon. They don’t see him as an icon, but rather the messiah that the prophets spoke of.
right, except when they go into church and bow before the statue of jesus on the cross, or worship the virgin mary, or little statues of saints like the catholics–“the official christians”–do, right?
I would really like to think that there is more to practicing Judaism than following laws and smashing idols. The jewish faith and culture is much more rich and fulfilling than just not eating cheeseburgers.
i agree, there is much, much more to it. but don’t think for a minute that that’s not part of it.
Lastly, what happens when another major religion emerges where people pray while standing, will all Jews have to stand on their heads while praying? In every temple I’ve been to (orthodox, conservative, and reformed), the vast majority of the time people are sitting (as in church). Can you explain that one a bit more?
it’s all about the amidah, baby…that’s all i’ve got to say.
1. Your fundamental flaw is that you are convinced that what you believe as FACT is actually an interpretation and a point of view.
When G-d says “a man should not lie with a man as he does a woman.” you assume this means sex. It does seem pretty obvious to me that he means sex too, but that is only how we both interpreted it. Maybe g-d just meant sleep or to not tell the truth. 🙂 The point is, although you and I both came to the same conclusion on that statement, I would not blast someone for coming to a different conclusion. I would be tempted to engage in a theological discourse on the subject, but I would not be cursing their name.
I’m not saying that I believe they are correct, only that they have the right to believe in whatever they choose without their name being cursed.
2. Don’t blame these missionaries for the past transgressions of past missionaries. They are not the same people and are not doing the same “evil” things as those from 300 years ago.
Not all missionary work was bad, by any stretch of the imagination. I don’t want to get into the merits of missionary work in the past, but you should at least recognize that they did some good.
3. idolarty: Worship of idols.
No branch of christianity worships idols. The statues are symbols of the real deal. Idolarty would be the worship of the statue themselves. People who bow before them do it out of respect for who it symbolizes, they don’t think that the physical statue is their deity. *boggle*
btw, correction on my last post, I realized I’ve never been in a reformed temple, but the conservative temple I was in had a female cantor so I kept thinking that it was reformed.