Culture, Identity, Mishegas, Religion, Uncategorized

The end of Jahfilte Fish?

When I first came back from Israel, I got involved in an informal shabbos community throughout New York. Masters of something they called the “ruckus shabbos,” whereby shabbos would be, just crazy, with constant drunken singing, dancing, and yet a strange modest self-control that would generally keep things from getting “out of hand,” We rocked hard all through different houses, communities, and national parks in and out of the tri-state area, most rainbow gatherings, and sometimes even Canada or Mexico. Somehow we started referring to each other as Gefilte fish, either because of the tightly packed car rides, lack of any leadership or secular purpose (no head or tail), or just the drinking. The “Ge” became rastafarized as a “Jah” as we recieved Nyabingi smicha at the national Rainbow Gathering, with Bingi Icon Rocker-T even playing a set for us at one of our many flop houses in Washington Heights once.
Mostly initially inspired by the wilder shabboses we were turned on to in Israel, with a devotional party passion and love for the songs that we’d picked up here and there from Shlomo, R’Nachman and sometimes raffi or uncle Moishy, we had some mighty good shabboses, indeed. People met and fell in love, got married, divorced, religious and post religious, with the proud accomplishment of almost nothing but some strongly built friendships, and a few people charmed into the Sabbath religion. We’ve mostly long since disbanded yet stayed together, meeting up in Jerusalem, weddings, and the odd shabbos where any of us are nearby. We’ve all grown and changed very much both theologically and in all those other ways too, decreeing the Jahfilte Fish movement, as it somehow came to be called, dead and over a number of times.
At one point we got a website, mostly for announcements, but also for the occasional Torah clipping or something. It was pretty simple and stable for a while.
And then, at some point things started to get out of control.
Not with personal attacks, mostly, more with controversial theological positions, explorations of anti-nominanism, drug morality, sexual virtues and demands… keep in mind that we’re all a bunch of kids, from like 19-30 something, most all from orthodox backgrounds… suddenly exposing each other to progressively radicaler Torah and ideas–
back and forth raising and lowering stakes as we’d get either bored or threatened by the discourse.
So there’s been a conservative response every so often, especially when we’d degrade into cheap yeshivish bathroom humor, or some blanketly droll statement about the evil of such-and-such group or the virtue of such and such drug– But now it looks, like at long last, the site might be ending.
The moderator of the site, one of the coolest, lovingest people I know, is about to call it quits on the basis of moral distrust of some of the Torahs being given over, and no one of the rest of us has the technical skills to moderate much. We’re still negotiating, but basically he felt that some of the ideas being promolgated are too far beyond the acceptable norms of Torah.
The main problem has been recent postings of Neo-Sabbatean teachings controversies having to do with the nature of Jesus Christ’s trip and whether messianism is inherently or even vaguely anti-nomian…
We’d gone past a period of some controversy, from the Naked Shabbos case which was cross explored here on Jewschool and there on Jahfilte. But now, it looks like the conversation is ending, after a period of really radical stuff, some of which felt for me like the most important discussions ever.
Because it’s easy to justify radical ideas in a secular or academic context, but for it to happen organically inside what’s basically an orthodox youth culture– that might be powerful. We tried to argue everything on the basis of the holy, instead of dismissing the holy outright, which made this forum feel somehow authentic and homey to me.
And now that it’s about to be over, I welcome y’all to take a look. See if you find anything worth saving, or, if for some strange reason any of you want to take over hosting, some of us would appreciate it. This is our first time being shown to the larger world, so… be nice. feel free to comment while there’s still time, post chat stuff, insight, political ideas, and if you know of anywhere cool to go for shabbos, let us know.
www.jahfiltefish.com

38 thoughts on “The end of Jahfilte Fish?

  1. I don’t know about anyone else, but all that matters to me at the moment is the peril our Israeli brothers and sisters are enduring The death of 8 young boys in the idf was a knife in my stomach – that 1/2 the country has to live in bomb shelter can make me cry if I think about it too much. So the posters about other subjects: are they in denial, are they overloaded with too much war news to endure; do they not particulary care? I don’t know the answer, I can only speak for myself – we are in danger, israel as usual has to defend herself, and the majority of the rest of the world is against her. For the first time in my life, I can understand how the Holocaust could have occurred.

  2. nah, the oldest Israeli tradition is going on with everything else even when it gets bad. why NOT let the other info come when it comes?
    There’s a rule in the gemara in taani, that if shabbos happens on tisha b’av, shabbos is kept, and tisha b’av delayed, and from the way it’s phrased, i’s clear to me that it’s giving over a general principle: If you’re mourning or stressing or angry or heartroken, and a moment of shabbos comes, don’t push it off. Because hat moment of shabbos takes precedent over whatever kind of tisha b’av might have been going on.

  3. With all due respect, you need to be more careful and accurate in what you say about Donmeh West and Neo-Sabbatian Kabbalah.
    To begin with the founder and spiritual leader of Donmeh West, Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain — whom the Israeli newspaper Ma’ariv has called “the successor to Sabbatai Zevi” — is 72 years old and has been writing about, publishing and teaching on Sabbatianism for almost half a century, the past decade of which has been on the internet. He and his teachings are “recent” (as you call them) only because you have recently learned about them, not because they haven’t been around for a very long time. In fact, if anyone is “recent” it is you.
    Moreover, we suggest you actually READ what the Rebbe has written and published on http://www.donmeh-west.com before saying what it is about. Were you to do so, you would find that his teachings (which are in an almost 500 year old unbroken tradition) have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with “reassessing Jesus Christ as the Messiah” (as you very mistakenly claim) but with the world-wide, highly misunderstood, Sabbatian advent of 1665 and what it means for Tikkun Olam today.
    You’re free to disagree with Reb Yakov Leib and his Neo-Sabbatian teachings and even reject them outright. Many people do. But for HaShem’s sake at least represent them and how long they have been around accurately. To do otherwise suggests that you don’t know what you’re talking about on other issues any more than you do about that one.
    Zvi Go’el,
    Aziz Mehemet Effendi, Asst. to Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain
    DONMEH WEST
    http://www.donmeh-west.com

  4. I had never heard of neo-Sabbatian Kabbalah before. Now I’ve checked out the site, and now I’m scared. Apparently, it was okay that Shabbatai Zvi converted to Islam because, you know, it was predicted by Nathan of Gaza long before it happened. Whew. I feel better now!
    Did you know that Jews believed in Avatars? Nope, me neither.
    So… how is this different from J4J? Other than the superficial stuff, that is.
    Incidentally, Zvi’s conversion was “Holy Apostasy.” You can’t make this stuff up. The capitalization is there on the website, too.
    Fave quote: “The point of Holy Apostasy is Tikkun.” Can’t we go back to making golems or something? Besides, the site quotes from EPHESIANS to justify things. Yeah, I remember that from somewhere… in the New Testament!

  5. Re: Dirrigible’s comment. I echo Yosef’s words. All we can do is continue to pray, praise God, serve in elevating our communities, and find joy even within the pain.

  6. hey max, thanks for the interest, i’m red hen on jahfilte and would like to see the headbutting/brainstorming continue indefinitely and would love to see the site change hands to someone less afraid.
    for the record, no one is saying your sabatean rabbi loves jesus, chill.
    people are throwing out ideas and nothing is taken at face value.
    they were mostly 2 different issues.
    and to those who say i only have space in my world for the hezbolla/israel conflict.
    i say
    that’s too bad. you’re probably even cranky than i am these days.
    lovingly, emilia

  7. Dear DT,
    “So… how is this [i.e., Neo-Sabbatianism] different from J4J? Other than the superficial stuff, that is.”
    Well, let’s see, how about this for openers: Neo-Sabbatians don’t believe that Jesus even existed, let alone that he was the Moshiach. And secondly, unlike Christians who believe their “Messiah” was a man-god, Neo-Sabbatians do NOT believe that Sabbatai Zevi was either “god,” a “divine incarnation” or any other pagan narishkite, but only that he was one of many (and clearly the most impactful) of a succession of Moshiachs ben Yosef who have come before and since him to prepare the way for the final Mosiach ben Dovid. (I mean, a smart boy like you? Surely you must know about Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. Right?)
    And secondly, yes, “Ephesians” is quoted by Reb Yakov Leib in one of his several critiques of and attacks on Christianity — but quoted by him to prove that even Paul taught that it is NOT the Jews and Judaism who will by saved by the Gentiles and Christianity, but rather the Gentiles and Christianity who will be saved by the Jews and Judaism. (I know that may be a tad too complicated for you to catch hold of, but do try.)
    As for the rest of what you misquote and misrepresent from the Donmeh West website, please, I beg of you, Zai nisht so groise ah nahr. Better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
    Love and Kisses,
    Aziz Mehemet Effendi, Asst. to Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain
    DONMEH WEST
    http://www.donmeh-west.com

  8. Shalom Jewschool Bloggers,
    I’ve noticed the flurry of emails about me and our Neo-Sabbatian Kabbalah on your blog, and I’d like to add my own two-cents plain. (For those of you too young to remember, that’s a pun on what seltzer water used to be called at the soda fountains of Jewish delicatessens back when I was a boy growing up in the shtetles of Chicago.)
    And what I’d like to say is that despite the animus toward and misunderstandings about who we are and what we teach, I very much like your blog and commend you for what you’re trying to do. May you go from strength to strength.
    Yasher Koach,
    Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain
    DONMEH WEST
    http://www.donmeh-west.com

  9. Wow, I just love the picture of Carl Jung there at the top of the website, the first non-Jewish psychoanalyst. He basically single-handedly turned psychoanalysis from a “Jewish science” to a science for everyone.

  10. Dan: I figured you’re a busy man, and that it might be beneath your dignity or something. Plus, i’m kind of a drama queen, and kinda wanted to make a whole big deal over it.
    Azziz Mehmet: If you’ll check where the controversy is on the Jhfiltefish website, you’ll see i’m usually defending Yalhakian Neo-sabbateanism as insightful, and truegod devoted. The whole situation (kinda) started because of someone from our commuity posting Torahs from Donmeh West, and the ensuing reaction. Check it out, in the “insight” and “chat” sections, it would be really interesting to me to see how y’all would relate to the discussion going on there.
    Maxkohanehad; Yeah, that’d be great, unless Dan’d rather do it for whatever reason. drop a note in the chat section of the site, and we’ll get in touch.

  11. Shalom Yosef Leib,
    Thank you for clearing up this unfortunate misunderstanding. As I wrote earlier, I’m truly moved and excited by the Azut Di-Qedusha (as Rebbe Nachman would have called it) of what’s being done here by all of you on Jewschool. Yasher Koach!
    As for the controversy, take it as a blessing. Again, remember Rebbe Nachman who was literally hounded out of every Jewish community he attempted to settle in — denounced as a liar, fraud and, by some, even a heretic.
    Yet, Nachman absorbed the controversy hurled at him into his own person — transforming it, through his Kavannah, into a “holy angel, a being of might and destiny.”
    And more, he insisted that that those very attacks on him personally and the bitter controvery they created were absolutely necessary for completing the Avodah of rescuing the Shekhinah from the filth into which She has fallen and restoring Her to Her to unity with HaShem. So stay strong.
    Birkat Kohanim,
    Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain
    DONMEH WEST
    http://www.donmeh-west.com

  12. Yosef- I don’t know what to say to you that you’d listen to me. It is true that you misrepresented the intentions of Yehuda Hanasi, Rabbi Hillel, Rebbe Shimon Bar Yochai, the Arizal, and every other G-d fearing Jew who has really kept the tradition of Torah alive. You did this deliberately to make others think that it is okay according to halacha to do whatever feels good. That is wrong. If anybody wants an in-depth analysis of the worldview of any of the above, and the situations where they may have disagreed with other prominent poskim, I will do my best to arrange a clear paper on the topic. Maybe it would be good if everybody can agree on one situation and then I will go to work. However, honestly, the questions usually aren’t so good. The general answer of “look at the context” usually works. For example, Hillel did say that we should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us, Rabbi Akiva did stress to love our neighbor as ourselves, etc. However, these are the same Rabbis who gave us clear laws on how to judge cases of theft, the punishments dealing with sleeping with a girl who is niddah, etc., whether or not our selfish intuition agrees. When a person is very familiar with all these facts, yet only quote those which suits their agenda, it is two things: manipulative and mean (to the person who is too dead to defend themself).
    The reason I quit moderating jahfiltefish.com and took down the message board (well, not yet, soon after this message) is because conversation is a neutral tool, whose power rests in the intent of those who use it. It is very sad that the intent of most of those who were writing became something very destructive. This says absolutely nothing about a certain minority who were writing nor does it speak about the dozens of people who chose not to write. Some have called me, emailed me, private messaged me, and share my perspective.
    Shavua Tov.
    -David

  13. yeah and there were many many people on the board telling you that you were completely out of line in your actions.
    this is a case of the boy who never got to go to burning man so he reinvented it for himself.
    check out jahfilte, he’s torched the beis hamikdosh all over again.
    brilliant, why when the fire starts to die down just toss some dirty anatomy textbooks in it just like the good old days. they’ve got dirty pictures in there!
    HYPOCRITE!

  14. many people feel betrayed by your misuse of the tiny bit of power you had moderating the website.
    you of all people
    no tolerance, you have been dragged centuries into the past in an ancient battle.
    why did you come here of all places to vindicate yourself?
    this is a place of perspectives and openness.
    “wake the fuck up” you said. it’s the greatest irony, i pray that you wake up before it’s too late.

  15. Today is the yarzheit of the Arizal. Donmeh is a movement which disgraces his teachings. I will not argue this point, as it is non-negotiable. For those who misunderstand their problem, I will explain briefly. Authentic Kaballah teaches that there is a divine spark in every thing. In order to redeem that spark, one must approach it by the path of halacha. Donmeh and other corrupt organizations like it teach you the first part, and ignore/pervert/imagine the second part. They are using some of the holy Ari’s teachings in order to justify hedonism. Be careful of such missionary tactics.
    Emilia, Yosef, since this is perhaps the last message I will write on the subject, I will address the final two accusations you presented to me, although I had already answered them.
    Emilia, I had already answered your question about Israel in the poll you put up. It is “life as usual” where I am, because I see no explosions or gunfire. The war has not affected my daily life at all.
    Yosef, your question about Yehuda Hanasi should have been presented to a posek. I told this to you about a month ago when we got into the argument on the shomer negiah issue. You are wrong to assume that Rebbe broke halacha when he compiled the mishna. It is a large, complicated issue, and cannot be chalked up to “he broke the Torah to save it.” For example, (and I cite this information from a Rabbi I trust, I have not seen it inside yet) it is a machlocet rishonim whether or not editing the mishna was done orally or through writing. It is a machlocet in the gemara about whether or not it is inherently wrong and what heters apply. Etc. My complaint is not that you were wrong- we all make mistakes- my complaint is that you must have realized that the situation of any random jew doing whatever they want is not even slightly comparable to the decision of Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi to compile the mishna. None of the circumstances are comparable. Please, I have suffered enough embarassment to get this point across to you, find a Rav who can give you the answers you seek and stop using Torah to justify your own whims. Prevent Aaron from getting involved with this Shabbatai Tzvi crap. Help Emilia see that “safe” is not neccessarily “closeminded”, nor is it “bad.” I’ve done what I can to try and help you. Please believe that my calling your stance “manipulative” was meant to make you aware of the effect of your words, and my shutting down the site was done out of love.
    Take care,
    David

  16. Shalom Jewschool Bloggers,
    Well, we have said our piece and have no more to say. Our argument (if it can be called that) is in what we have written and taught — and which can be read and listened to — rather than in what others, who speak before they know, SAY we say.
    This is our last communique (at which, we’re sure, there is a great sigh of relief). We have no wish to become involved in or exacerbate what is clearly an internal squabble.
    Nor do we wish to “proselytize” anyone to anything. On the contrary, our attitude is that of another heretical Jew, Fritz Perls (whom one or two of you may know of, though we doubt it) who said, “You do your thing, and I do mine. I am not in this world to live up to your expectations, and your are not in this world to live up to mine. I go my way, and you go yours — and if, by chance, we meet, its beautiful; if not, it can’t be helped.”
    Ver Gornisht Helfen,
    Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain
    DONMEH WEST
    http://www.donmeh-west.com

  17. why do you think yosef is going to convince me of anything. david, (snap snap) i ‘m right here, you can talk to me yourself. yosef is an unwarranted intermediary. his ideas don’t affect me any more than yours do. that’s what you don’t get. keep fighting but stay out of my life.
    to the donmeh west people, it was nice to share a board with you.

  18. why do you think that yosef holds sway over my opinions any more than you do?
    the way i feel about your actions is my own construction and has nothing to do with yosef or anyone else.
    you showed a lack of respect for me and many others who used jahfiltefish.com as a way to stay connected with friends and discuss current and relevant issues by destroying it.
    you put yosef in an exalted position and lined up the free thinkers with him.
    since i think for myself i was not comfortable with being cast in the role of his underling.
    and i think you are a coward.
    hiding behind the torah your inablility to cope with the existence of various valid ideologies and viewpoints.
    gone to any trance parties lately?
    this is the end of our friendship.

  19. david, i don’t have your e-mail adress, so write me at [email protected] to discuss transferring administration. No hard feelings, but it’d be nice to have the site up again as soon as possible, if for no ther reason than so the kids can make shabbos plans. thanks for the sevice up until now, and if and when we get the thing running again, it’d be nice to have you on it.
    I felt like the conversations we were having were getting somehwere, ifnothing else, forcing us to clarify how we were holding in a way that not thinking about it or arguing about it can’t and could not do. It’s kind of an infinite back and forth, but one that might shed light on us and our true values along the way. so… there’s always tommorow.
    but yeah, be in touch soon, yeah? see you in the holy city.
    Yoseph

  20. Yosef- I am no longer the administrator there. Please be careful. I’ll see you soon, and don’t get me wrong, I am very dissapointed and saddened, but I still like you very much and care for your well being. Emilia, you as well.

  21. wow – check out the burning temple on the homepage now – just right – the image expresses how i feel about the destruction of Jahfiltefish.com – when religious ideology overcame love of ones fellow – you know i may not cry over the destruction of the temple – but i’m truely saddened by this sensless destuction in the name of Hashem and the Torah.

  22. remnants of the site are here
    http://whynotmedia.com/jahfiltefish/frameset.htm
    what’s the word for the act of shutting people up because you don’t agree with them?
    Censorship? i’m sure there is a better word for describing the use of power to control others to silence people
    The sense of powerlessness in those who want to express themselves to communicate
    but i expect no sympathy here from mobius and his team – as mobius loves to censor me – because he thinks he knows me
    and doesn’t understand that the use of power and censorship makes him and David (the guy that has shut Jahfilefish down) just the same –
    the same as… ? who? (use your imagination)
    an inability to tolerate views which jar against your own – is the source of baseless hatred – because in truth you can’t face the other – other people really exist outside of your own experience – they are not just an extension of your own game playing and attempts to take over the world
    we are being forced into extremes by people living in extremes – left/right religious/anti –
    the polarisation of Judaism today is because of a lack of true vision – it is because of fear, hate and intolerance.
    Jahfiltefish was a community of hope – of tolerance of vision, and of love – a glimpse of the possible future of Judaism today – like a vision of the Holy Temple –
    Lets rebuild this community – let us once more celebrate just being Jewish – with openness, love and humility –
    let us rebuild the spiritual temple within us – and discover the divine presence within our fellow human being – in the face of the other.

  23. i put up a forum for jahfilte fish (among other things) … go to http://forum.jewschool.com and register
    david — i hear your reservations and don’t doubt your sincerity. however, i disagree with using the position of power you were entrusted with to destroy what is ultimately the cummulative contribution of many at the whim of your own dissatisfaction.
    you can either win the argument or cede it. throwing the chess board to the ground because you may conceivably lose a match is immature. i have other remarks, but i’ll save them next time i see you in person.

  24. Dan, imagine if Jewschool became Islamschool, i.e. *all* of your writers started bashing Jews and promoting Islam, yet the only thing that remained were your graphics and backend system. I doubt you would continue supporting it.

  25. I think the metaphor would be more accurate – to describe what happened as if Mobius had a very slow change of heart and became more right wing – (which i see happening btw) so the ‘alternative views & culture’ slowly became ‘the pro-Zionist, pro-religious, pro-black-hated-rabbis’
    – the problem then happens when Mobi might start to censor those people who he didn’t agree with – and then when the back lash became so large that he couldn’t seem to convince people of his views –
    saying “F*CK it! i’m closing down this site i don’t agree with what every one is saying here about the Palestinians having human rights”
    The family didn’t change – but you did David! – Jahfilefish has always been a bit on the edge – that’s what gave it its edge!
    Jewschool didn’t become Islamschool –
    Jahfilefish staid the same but YOU became Fafrumpefish!

  26. *sigh* you still don’t get it do you? It is not about the issues that were discussed, it was about the *way* in which they were discussed. I’ve explained it all before, but people really do see what they want to see. Everyone’s so happy- “ooh, I knew the religion stuff would get to him!” I am sorry, but the truth is I actually haven’t changed at all. I have always been interested in most topics (how do you think I countered the crap that was being presented? I had to do some research), but I have never been tolerant of dishonesty and deception. Yes, in a weird sense, that is close-minded, but it is the same character trait that’s been with me my whole life. It is G-d’s blessing of honesty and integrity which allow a person to safely deal with this world of lies.

  27. Aie… I must apologize. It really isn’t such a good thing to be “interested in most topics.” It’s something I should try and work on. Many topics of conversation are really not worth the energy. I actually wish I were what you think I am, a holy Jew whose refuses to succumb to destructive sillyness. Maybe one day, but I’m not quite there yet. Take care – I’m out.

  28. B”H
    Shalom Aleichem Jewfish Bloggers,
    I know I said I wasn’t going to post any more messages to your blog, and I know this is none of my business, and I know that I don’t know the full story of what’s going on — but all that being said, I feel compelled to have my say anyway despite the fact I said I wouldn’t. (If you want me to butt out in future, just say so and I will. I’ve learned to “know my place” and stay out of where I’m not wanted.)
    It’s unfortunate, but when someone accuses someone else of being “dishonest” or a “liar” very often what they really mean is that the accused person holds an opinion or belief that runs counter to the accuser’s opinion or belief about what the “truth” REALLY is. In other words, there is a conflation of “fact” and “belief.”
    But coming from an entirely different or even distasteful point-of-view is neither a lie nor dishonest., no matter how much the other person wants to insist that it is.
    A lie — to really be a LIE — would be if I (for example) were to tell a third party that you (for example) said or did something that you did NOT actually say or do. A lie — to BE a “lie” — must always refer to an EMPIRICAL and NOT a “subjective” violation of REALITY/
    If, for another example, you believe (as many do) that I interpret the Arizal in a way you disapprove of, or that is even offensive to you, that does not make me a liar or dishonest; it only makes me someone with whom you have a strong (and, possibly, even valid) disagreement. But a “liar” or “dishonest?” No.
    On the other hand, were I to say that the Arizal said something he DIDN’T say — were I to blatantly misquote him for the purpose of making my heretical and/or antinomian point — THAT would be an unquestionable LIE and unforgivably DISHONEST of me. In other words, someone isn’t a “liar” or “dishonest” simply because they disagree with you in a way that you find disagreeable and contrary to YOUR belief of what is “true.”
    In the heat of arguments such as you’re having here, people often lose sight of this essential distinction between a “lie” and a “difference of opinion.” I suggest that all of us, at all times, should be careful neither to lose sight of that distinction, nor to take seriously anyone who does.
    Kol Tuv,
    Reb Yakov Leib HaKohain
    DONMEH WEST
    http://www.donmeh-west.com
    P.S. Again, if I’m out of line or unwelcome, please let me know and I’ll shut my mouth and be thought a fool rather than continuing to open it and, thereby, removing all doubt.

  29. “*sigh* you still don’t get it do you? It is not about the issues that were discussed, it was about the *way* in which they were discussed.”
    really?

  30. “Donmeh is a movement which disgraces his teachings. I will not argue this point, as it is non-negotiable.”
    “It is true that you misrepresented the intentions of Yehuda Hanasi, Rabbi Hillel, Rebbe Shimon Bar Yochai, the Arizal, and every other G-d fearing Jew who has really kept the tradition of Torah alive. You did this deliberately to make others think that it is okay according to halacha to do whatever feels good”
    The really scary part of your writing lately, to me any way, is how strong your assumptions are. Why is it non-negotiable? What makes you so sure that i’m misrepresnting teachings instead of them actually being valid proofs that what i’m saying is actually valid and has been expressed in Judaism before? Just that your Rabbi never heard them?
    The other scary thing is how much you’re claiming to have “logically” disproved anything. You’ve used less logic and more vitriol, starting with dogmas that are not gospel truths.
    Your proof that i’m wrong is that I must be wrong, and that any good posek would prove it to me. Oh yeah? Get your posek out here amn, whip him out. Let him actually use words of Torah to prove me wrong, not just strong, definitive language and dismissive memes, said over with as much confidence and arrogance as your lying Rabbis.
    Really, it would be great. Even if I never had the heart to accept any of the wonderfully argued torahs they were giving over, even if my heart was not turned by the clear confidence in which they say something is just. not. true., at least good torah would be disseminated to the confused, curious children reading all this. right?

  31. I’ve added a Jahfilefish section to http://www.xlubi.com/forum – but i don’t think that that’s were it belongs
    – moreover – what the hell is happening?
    set up a new Jahfilefish –
    i’m more than glad to help out – (even pay for some stuff) i’ve got loads of hosting space at the moment, a bit of graphic splash and a big heart? much love – [email protected]

  32. yeah, sorry, we’re moving the codes around a bit. the guys who own the domain name are working out what they want to do with it. I like the idea of you moderating, but it’s not in my hands exactly, though I’m sure my vote counts for something.
    Incidently, it was so cool to have R Yaakov Leib come out of the woodwork with righteous sweet insight. It’s always amazing to me when I scream hello into the interweb void and it responds.
    but yeah, we have your e-mail and– I don’t know what’s going on. it’s kind of cool to have no temple at this time of year, if only for the sake of drama, holy drama.

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