Culture, Israel, Politics

The Most Moral Army in the World & The 'Pleasure' of 'Liquidating' the Untermensch

“The moment we knew we were going to eliminate them, we no longer saw them as human” the ex-commando, now a student, said. … “It was the first time I had killed and the first time I saw someone die. It was simply a pleasurable day”
Full story
I wonder what he’s studying in school?
[Update] 7:50pm EST – A more extensive article appears in NY Newsday. More unfortunate details emerge:
“One soldier, from the Yael reconnaissance unit, described a “crazy blood revenge rush” on the day of the attacks. “I really enjoyed it” … “The idea was simply to kill them all,” the soldier said. “Whenever they [appeared] we would kill them, regardless whether armed or not.” … Avichahy Sharon, a former Israeli soldier and activist with Breaking the Silence, said yesterday … he did not expect any criminal charges to result from the soldiers’ revelations. “I don’t believe there would be any charges, as this goes right to the top, to the minister of defense. This was a policy decision, and we hope it will open up a debate.”

67 thoughts on “The Most Moral Army in the World & The 'Pleasure' of 'Liquidating' the Untermensch

  1. Johnny boy! I think Hamas may a have a vacancy in their PR department for you. The pay is good.
    Every time you have the ability to denegrate the image tzahal you do!
    I would give a sh*t ’bout watchu say if you posted everytime the Arabs reek of hypocricy. But then you may not get that position at Hamas, Inc . . .

  2. yes yes, of course. what really would have been the right thing to do would be to walk up to those naughty palestinians and express how much the israelis’ feelings were hurt over those ambushes and terror attacks. once everyones’ feelings were expressed, then all could hold hands and sing happy songs about rainbows and puppy dogs.
    but to stage a retribution attack in a time of war and kill someone? only a zionist would do such an immoral thing.

  3. oops! john you big silly, you forgot the money quote from the article:
    The Palestinian Authority, which denied Israeli charges at the time that members of its security forces were complicit in attacks against Israelis, has since acknowledged that many of the men have moonlighted as militants.
    kol hakavod tzahal!

  4. i wonder if mordechai anielewicz and the fighters in the warsaw ghetto saw the nazis as human or if they are deserving of scorn too? if nothing else, thanks john for posting something so ridiculous it has allowed me to get all right wing for a few minutes. damn that felt good!

  5. LOL, one more post and then i’m done!
    “In a last letter to a friend, Anielewicz wrote on April 23, 1943:
    Be well, my friend! Perhaps we will see one another again. The most important thing is that my life’s dream has come true. Jewish self-defense in the ghetto has been realized. Jewish retaliation and resistance has become a fact. I have been witness to the magnificent heroic battle of the Jewish fighters.

    i guess i just answered my previous question.

  6. Why get mad at JB? it’s not worth your time. Every indication is that the IDF functions like most other Western armies and sometimes makes mistakes too. Abu Ghraib doesn’t delegitimize the entire US Army, and this incident doesn’t delegitimize the IDF– as inappropriate as the incidents themselves may be. Bottom line? The IDF is comprised of human beings, and it shouldn’t be held to a higher standard than other armies. War makes decision making a very difficult task, and people mess up. JB just likes to foam at the mouth any chance he gets– it’s his shtick, and it’s old already. Besides pointing out the “evils” of Israeli society and suggesting solutions that could exist only in fantasy novels, he has contributed absolutely Zero constructive discourse to this board. It’s sad really.

  7. That said, Ronen, what is the purpose of John Brown’s post? Who does it help? It doesn’t help the more legitimate Palestian national aspirations as it only rationalizes the Hamas-Jihad-Martyrs mentality. It doesn’t help the greater Am or Medinat Israel communities by “reminding” us all of our humanity. And it doesn’t serve the peace process to rub our noses in that very humanity we all know so well to begin with. You’re right it is sad. But I can also be pissed at JB for being a bratty little shit about it.

  8. Zionista wrote: “what is the purpose of John Brown’s post? Who does it help?
    As far as I’m concerned the various people who avoided discussing the issue and instead focused on attacking me are missing the point entirely. Posts like this one help the Jewish people because it makes it obvious that at least some of us are disgusted by repeated incidents like this. Too many people in the world believe that all Jews support Israel unconditionally, and when things like this happen synagogues burn (etc) across the Diaspora.
    Frankly I’m disappointed that more people haven’t spoken out against the idea that some people can be considered less than human and therefore can be murdered at will with a “coup de grace” gun shot to the head. Seriously – I think if you’re Jewish, and you read that, and it doesn’t set off alarm bells in your mind then there’s something wrong with you.
    * Fear Can Turn Us All Into ‘Good Germans.’ We Must Resist It
    * Poll: U.S. Jews say Israelis are militant, nationalistic; Young American Jews are more ambivalent toward Israel

  9. JB. I think you are missing the point because you are buried so deep in your left wing state of self-righteousnes and anti-war paranoia. If you haven’t noticed, Palestinians have openly called for JIHAD (that doesn’t just mean a war, but a Holy war which is even more dangerous) against Israel. So the big dilema is how to react to a declaration of war that does not come officially from a state. The facade headed by Abbas that acts like a government is supposedly in search of peace. The real players are the terrorists and the double faced PA “security forces” who attack us at night. As a democratic state we can’t declare war against the Palestinians as an official policy. We do have a right to and have declared war against terrorists. And if those terrorists happen to be security officials at a checkpoint then I hope they meet their virgins in heaven (have you seen the PA indocrination videos? they are actually pretty hot) at the hands of an IDF hero.
    Are Palestinian security officials lesser human beings? You betcha! There IS such a differential for terrorists, dictators and the like but people like you seem to have a hard time making that differentiation between good and evil, right and wrong and that sets off alarm bells in my Jewish mind. As the genie in a Disney movie once said : “Wake up and smell the hummus” Having said that, I do feel and pray for the innocent victims in both sides.

  10. “Too many people in the world believe that all Jews support Israel unconditionally, and when things like this happen synagogues burn (etc) across the Diaspora.”
    So JB’s posts are designed to prevent antisemites, who believe “all Jews support Israel unconditionally” from burning synagogues down around the world. At least he knows his target audience: JB writes for those who would burn down synagogues if not for his vulgar stories. What’s the difference between your stories and those at LGF, again?
    (Can I call you “Uncle John”?)
    However, JB if this is the case, why post your snotty bullshit here? According to the poll you cite, most U.S. Jews don’t unconditionally support Israel…maybe you should go somewhere else and try to convince antisemites that burning synagogues down just “isn’t fair”. What a marroon.

  11. The pleasure the quoted soldier gets from killing his enemy is the same pleasure JB gets from pointing out out-of-context “moral” failings of Israel.

  12. JB
    My criticism is wholly approrpiate. It certainly makes sense for us to discuss the failings of Israel for the purpose of making Israel better. But you’ve never presented any constructive, realistic proposals. You simply post about Israel’s failings with an antagonistic point of view. If you took your own advice, I’d be impressed, but right now it there is a wide gap between what you’re doing and what you THINK you’re doing.
    Furthermore, this or that isolated incident does not come close to defining Israeli society, so you have a LONG way to go before you can even talk about improving Israel. In my mind, the fact that Israeli journalists are reporting the subject speaks to the character of Israeli society far more than the incident itself.

  13. Last of the Jewish N-words wrote “So JB’s posts are designed to prevent antisemites, who believe “all Jews support Israel unconditionally” from burning synagogues down around the world. At least he knows his target audience: JB writes for those who would burn down synagogues
    More baseless character assassination…
    People who would burn synagogues presumably don’t read JewSchool. If I wanted to reach them then I’d be posting on some anti-Semitic site or something wouldn’t I ? But I’m not. Presumably however lots of Jews do read JewSchool. Therefore the target audience is other Jewish people and my hope is that other people will join me in opposing such tactics as “coup de grace” gunshots to the head of people who pose no imminent threat.
    What do you think the point was of the article I cited “Fear Can Turn Us All Into ‘Good Germans.’ We Must Resist It” ? The so-called ‘Good Germans’ didn’t speak up even when they disagreed with (or should have been horrified by) what they saw because they were German ‘patriots’. It should have been obvious from that article that this is intended as an appeal to Jews to speak out against injustice.
    They stood silently while their country committed acts of aggression and as a consequence their country was basically destroyed and their name itself made into a curse for generations to come. That’s what I don’t want to see happen to Israel, the Jewish people or for that matter, America..

  14. JB, we are not condenming you for speaking your mind. We are just saying you are wrong in doing it if the purpose of it is what you claim to be. You are not helping Israel and certainly not saving any innocent Palestinians.
    I think you missed the point about the security forces being terrorists too. They are double agents who carry out attacks directly and indirectly. In the very least they are complacent with terrorists who cross the border to shoot rockets or drive car bombs. We are not using “coup de grace” gunshots to the head of people who pose not threatas you stated. We are dealing with terrorists and their networks and that will save innocents every day.

  15. Andre wrote: “We are not using “coup de grace” gunshots to the head of people who pose not threatas you stated. “
    Andre – did you not read the article ? That’s exactly what the soldiers said they did. If the police were sitting there drinking coffee then they were not a threat. If they were suspected of aiding in attacks then why weren’t they arrested and brought to trial in a civil manner ? Simply killing them in cold blood is terrorism by any definition.

  16. “People who would burn synagogues presumably don’t read JewSchool.”
    Exactly my point. And also I’m assuming most people who read Jewschool don’t unconditionally support Israel. So…go post at Stormfront, EI or LGF. You are irrelevant here, except as a provocateur.

  17. Wow I got no response. I guess I’m right then.
    A) An isolated incident does not qualify as Israeli-sponsored “acts of agression.” You present ZERO evidence to suggest that these revenge killings were somehow sanctioned by Israeli political policy.
    B) The Israeli people HAVE spoken up, by reporting the incident in their NEWSPAPERS.
    Your arguments are bunk, my friend, bunk.

  18. John Brown: “Posts like this one help the Jewish people because it makes it obvious that at least some of us are disgusted by repeated incidents like this.”
    That is gratuitous bullshit, since it has long been obvious from the existence of groups like Shalom Achshav, B’Tzelem, Gush Shalom, Women in Black, etc.
    JB (Cont’d): “Too many people in the world believe that all Jews support Israel unconditionally, and when things like this happen synagogues burn (etc) across the Diaspora.”
    Synagogues burn with or without things like this. A Jewish state to many is simply intolerable, and the fact of its existence is all that is needed by Hamas-Jihad-Martyrs to blow themselves up in Israeli crowds, for their expat friends to burn diaspora shuls, and for their fellow travelers — fascists in progressive clothing, like International ANSWER– to conflate Zionism with imperial colonialism to rationalize it.
    Are incidents like this atrocious? Of course they are. They are also commonplace in a dirty little war that has gone on far too long. Show us something more and better than your getting off on adolescent agitprop.

  19. Ahhhh. I see now. So you are saying Israelis should be held to a higher standard when fighting TERRORISTS who have no standards to live by. We should try the suspects in a court of law (which we do most of the time) and then release them (as we did this week). Why don’t you go sell to the Israeli public that their tax money should go to support the ever increasing numbers of the same terrorist murderers in Israeli prisons who killed or maimed their kids. Don’t forget this is an unconventional war. No prisoners and trials necessary unless they can give us information. It’s tooth for tooth, eye for eye in the Middle East. And that’s something that a biased Westerner like you can not accept or comprehend even when you pretend to be concerned about foreign cultures. You disgust me when you try to compare the occasional failings or mishaps of an otherwise fair democractic country with Nazi Germany. You are sincerely out of touch with reality. You must be one of those who also agree with the Gulag / guantanamo comparison. Why don’t you read my blog, see if that gives you any insight into the abysm that exists between Israel and Palestine morality.

  20. Terrorism is a tactic used by states, groups and individuals. Terrorism is defined as the use of violence to achieve political or economic goals.
    Thus the designation ‘terrorist’ is a function of propaganda, usually state propaganda. It is intended to de-humanize–just like, spic, kike, and nigger.
    Many of the same people professing to fight ‘terrroism’ actually use state terror as a common practice.
    The victims of IDF state terror as just as much innocent victims as are Isreali teens in a pizza parlor.
    Once you disengage from using propaganda, reality is much more clear

  21. Actually, “nazi germany” as a point of referential comparision is entirely logical. If we are to advance as a specie, we must be keenly aware of the failings that lead to full blown nazism.
    Fascism is a proper name for a generalized tendency that exists in every human society throughout recorded history.
    The United States and Isreali support of fascist rightwing governments throughout the world is well documented.
    I suggest that we disabuse ourselves from idealizations that go far toward supporting an unacceptable, ecocidal status quo.
    The true lovers of Jewish culture are not afraid of deep critique–it is those folks that are mired in pathological fear that police the boundries of acceptable discourse and debate most vociferously.

  22. Probably JB could’ve avoided a lot of worthless screeching by foregoing the image (besides, everyone familiar with early Israeli propaganda knows about the disconcerting resemblance of the archetypical Sabra to an ideal Aryan). Really the whole thing comes down to that one line in the quote (which none of the idiots who think they’re lawyers upthread even touch), and the image adds nothing to it.

  23. suggest that we disabuse ourselves from idealizations that go far toward supporting an unacceptable, ecocidal status quo.
    The true lovers of Jewish culture are not afraid of deep critique–it is those folks that are mired in pathological fear that police the boundries of acceptable discourse and debate most vociferously.

    that guy sam who posts once in a while does a much better job at using big words to sound intelligent. i remember my freshman year in college when I thought that if I used the word “discourse” it would make me sound smart too.

  24. As I stated previous to “the pleasurable k&y” comment:
    “The true lovers of Jewish culture are not afraid of deep critique–it is those folks that are mired in pathological fear that police the boundries of acceptable discourse and debate most vociferously.”
    To fight facism, then one needs to engage a higher level of logic that does not engage propaganda terms that are deployed specifically to short-circut critical thinking–thinking that allows us the distance that we need to engage in healthy, peaceful relationships with one another and the world.
    “The have eyes but they do not see; They have ears but they do not hear”
    Willful ignorance is such a drag.

  25. Sausage, my brother–“sounding” intelligent is not the goal for dynamic, healthy human beings.
    Being, and acting in an intelligent manner should be the standard for ethical judgement.
    ye shall be know by thy deeds
    Anyone with a basic understanding of English, can readily discern the intent of my comments above–if not, then borrow a dictionary.
    Catering to the lowest common denominator of US anti-intellectualism is the goal of rightwing talkshow hosts, and their corporate media masters.
    As a celebration of Jewish culture, let’s endeavor to engage in a healthy respect for the use of clear, yet nuanced, language

  26. Here is a thought to mull over when considering the illegal, dehumanizing occupation of the Westbank, one specifically for Brother Sausage, meant to stoke up his right-wing zealousness:
    The Jews that resisted the assault on the Warsaw ghetto had a higher rate of survival than those that cooperated.
    In the context of the occupation, it would do well to understand the implications of this history

  27. well shits and giggles, you sound like one of the grad student ta’s i had during my undergrad days at berkeley. i love the word deploy almost as much as i love the word discourse. why, it’s almost militaristic — but not really! i leave you sir with a thought to mull over as well as we head in to the holy day of rest:
    If I lived back in the wild west days, instead of carrying a six-gun in my holster, I’d carry a soldering iron. That way, if some smart-aleck cowboy said something like “Hey, look. He’s carrying a soldering iron!” and started laughing, and everybody else started laughing, I could just say, “That’s right, it’s a soldering iron. The soldering iron of justice.” Then everybody would get real quiet and ashamed, because they had made fun of the soldering iron of justice, and I could probably hit them up for a free drink.
    – Rav Jack Handy

  28. The sodering iron of justice!
    I am humbled my the heat of your weapon, Sausage.
    Why does that sound weird and homoerotic?–not that there is anything wrong with that. lol

  29. Shavuah tov.
    John Brown welcome back!
    Did anyone ever name all the people in the images in the Jewschool titlebar?

  30. Jesus, going back a few points, I agree with you terrorism definition and I continue to define Palestinian security forces as terrorists while IDF in it’s actions can be characterized as what their name states: a DEFENSE force. They have defended Israel and it’s citizens for good part of this century. Now if you want to talk about state propaganda, the real euphemism for terrorists is Palestinian security forces, gangsters and outlaws running wild, who not only attack innocent Israelis but also their own people. You must choose to ignore the public hangings of the so called “traitors”, killing and raping of women who “disgrace” their families, rival faction battles and I could go on and on with barbaric examples of what the Muslim fundamentalists practice.
    There is no way you can claim that the IDF is state sponsored terrorism when they are a reactionary force. Targeted killings are perfectly acceptable. Unless you suggest they declare war and go on a full blown attack or just stop protecting their country all together.
    You can analize Germany and the Nazis all you want but there is nothing you can use from that period to remotely compare to Israel today, a blooming democracy in all senses.
    You mention occupation. Then we must be occupying something. Gaza? A piece of land that belongs to Egypt but that they have chose to forget. West bank? West of what? The Jordan river. Ah, that’s west from the perspective of Jordanians whose land the West bank originally belonged to. But wait, we have peace treaties with both countries! So I think you can go back in history and try to define for me what are we occupying.
    But, as Jesus of Nazareth would have recommended, I’ll be a kind soul and just assume for now that we are in fact occupying something, settlers are advancing in the desert building cities and factories, farms and stores where none other than Palestinians themselves work side by side with Jews and depend on to survive. Let’s say that all of that is illegal so you suggest we bring it all down for “political” reasons. You probably favor a mass transfer of thousands of families and the creation of mass unemployment of Palestinians. Why couldn’t a future peace treaty take into consideration the existing situation? Why couldn’t Jewish “settlers” be part of a future Palestinian state? Are Jews not allowed in a future Palestine just like they are not allowed elsewhere in the middle east? How do you explain to a Gaza settler who he himself was expelled from a Muslim North African country for being Jewish that he must move once again? Should Israelis in return expell all arabs from Israel proper? You must be one who proposes and believes the Return to Aztlan as well? Taking back California as part of Mexico? Shall all whites, blacks and asians move out of here?
    Perhaps you are suggesting a Pakistan/India solution of mass transfers cross countries? So many questions, so little answers…from you, you have obviously not put any thought into the situation, you have no idea of the situation on the ground, have not been in an army or police force, a politician nor a community leader. You sit in your dorm, writing utopian thesis for some graduate school in the east coast and I guess there is a place for you too in this world: academia. Leave the real world to the pros.

  31. “More baseless character assassination…”
    Brown, I don’t think you are one to talk about character attacks. I took a quick look at your odious blog, NewsFromBabylon, and it’s hardly a beacon of reasoned debate.
    And since you object so strongly to “character assassination” above, I find it your post of May 22 on that site typically hypocritical.

  32. I am humbled my the heat of your weapon, Sausage.
    you are not the first, nor will you be the last. shavua tov. 🙂

  33. JB, let me ask you this – do you consider Palestinian attacks on IDF troops do be terrorism? If not, why not?

  34. Eyal: does terrorism give anyone the right to terrorize? To torture? To punish collectively? To expel? To annihilate?
    The answer is yes. We must do anything at all we feel like to defend ourselves.

  35. Andre, your arguments are so divorced from reality, that it is usless to argue with it.
    Suffice to say, the ‘targetted killings’ that also kill innocent people are a specie of terrorism.
    But in your world there are ‘good terrorists’ and ‘bad terrorists’. I doubt that a maimed child has the erudition to make that nuanced distinction.
    Your illogical apologies for the occupation would even give Hitler’s propaganda office a bit of pause.
    The people that fought against facsism and died–communists, gays, jews, and gypsies are given a great dishonor from your apologetics for Isreali state terrror. But, hey, when you have the preponderant amount of weaponry and the world’s rouge super power on your side, truth can be whatever the ‘boss’ says, right?
    More, the IDF engages in all types of criminality and the corrupt Isreali state can depend on dupes such as yourself to swallow every lie with apparent glee. This is similar to populations in most countries with an effective apparatus of indoctrination/propagan da built up to ensure the the obvious truth is never called what it is–a manipulated, distorted flow of information in the service of ignoble goals.
    The thinking of many of you here is indeed as diseased as was the ‘good Germans’ that stood by silently or willingly participated in outright abominations.
    YOu will end up mirroring the behavior your hate–because your fanatical hold on to a mythologized, manufactured identity. Facism is based in part on an extreme paranoic double-bind paradox that is part and parcel to all forms of identity.
    It takes fairly nuanced thinking to see the pitfalls of this pathological identification. If it cannot be escaped than exterminating or driving out all the Arabs for the land that “God” gave you, or nuclear holocaust (worse that the shameful US use of those weapons on innocent Japanese women and children) will be the likely senerio that plays out on the ground.
    It takes a fairly sophisocated mass indoctrination to not be capable of seeing the injustice that are at the core of the pro-occupation thinking.
    In short–you are becoming what you claim that you most revile.
    Accepting that fate is up to you to decide.

  36. But, if you decide to renounce your sin of being “jew”, than your hero GW Bush and his evangelical friends will always help ‘save’ you through your becoming christians. He, he, he.
    Afterall, in this rightwing criminal leader’s mind, you are all going to go to hell anyway–you are all just fodder that will help fulfill the distopian ‘end-of-times’ dreams of the war-mongers that use the state of Isreal as a mere tool.
    Always think hard about who you accpet as friends–the dirt of their pathological thinking will rub off on you as well.
    As one of the most secularized religions in the West–those of us that want to help heal the world and avoid holocaust depend on Jewish folk who are committed to real justice to help us out of this mess.
    These aren’t the people screaming that the Palestinians are ‘cock roaches’ and the like.

  37. John (and JB), be careful, you have touched a sacred cow. Of course there is no question we people are kind, just, humane, democratic, enlightened society. Our army is a reflection of our own high morals and ethics. How dare you let anecdotal episodes get in the way of a good myth?! Why, in a minute you might mention all the benevolent settlers with their merciful acts of reminding the wretched and corrupt ex-Egyptians and ex-Jordanians that they live by our grace on our land. And the fact we are just like any other nation should pre-empt the notion to question any of our policies, anyway – you are either with us or against us. If you want to debate – let alone find – a middle ground, go and post on some Nazi website instead. We are all good people here, and we cannot tolerate any ideas that might suggest we do something wrong, EVER. The world is always against us because we are so good and noble. I can’t believe you even considered posting here an idea that does not support this absolute truth. Shame on you! People like you contribute nothing – you are simply ‘denigrating / silly / foaming at the mouth / bratty little shits / left-winger / self-righteous / anti-war paranoids / snotty bullshitters irrelevant provocateurs / adolescent agitpropers / disgusting biased Westerners’…
    But hey, ‘we are not condemning (sic) you for speaking your mind. We are just saying you are wrong in doing it if the purpose of it is what you claim to be’. You said you wanted to ‘speak out against injustice / raise alarm bells’… Well, it is obvious that’s crap – you just wanted to push our buttons. You ‘contributed absolutely Zero constructive discourse to this board. It’s sad really.’ We are all in agreement here about how heroic Jewish soldiers should act – ‘Targeted killings are perfectly acceptable’. So go and smell Humus, you shmucks…
    ‘Leave the real world to the pros’!
    Wow… Nuff said – what is this? A collective freak-out? You don’t like the view of the post, don’t read it, or comment on the failure of the system to find appropriate means to deal with terrorism. But this ferocious gang-up makes me wonder if JB’s comments are that off-mark. I’d like to think that we will never get that complacent but the post was about extrajudicial killing sanctioned by the authorities – it should raise a red flag, and it has nothing to do with whether we still perform better than others in the same situation or not. Whose standards do we want to live by? Lowest common wolf-pack grovel or our Talmudic legacy of careful and methodical debate of rights and wrongs? This is time to smell not only Humus – the whole falafel-stand should be snorted…
    “Thy glory, O Israel, is slain upon thy high places! How are the mighty fallen!”

  38. Michael, thanks for injecting a bit of human decency and healthy democratic thinking in this thread. When people smell blood even fairly ethical, open-minded people can say things they don’t really intend if they were to reflect a bit more.
    What seriously worries me are the self-satisfied attitudes that excult in our “goodness”–and close their ears and eyes toward clear evidence that points to clear crimes.
    Indeed, the “careful Taludic legacy of careful and methodical debate” is that strength that has ensured the survival of Jewish cultural in the face of ruthless Western populations with their periodic pograms and collective marginalization.
    The importance of sustained, complex debate is a great cultural legagcy that I wish more folk here in the US would take to heart.
    The fact that the historically ‘.ucked-over’ Jewish people finally have a common homeland (given by God, no less) lends to a situation where there is much psychic energy devoted to holding on to this refuge in a hostile world.
    But injustice and fanaticism are the surest way to ensure that the entire ME becomes uninhabitable via nuclear conflagration.
    We have a responsiblity as humans to reflect on and not repeat the insanity that lead to the genocide before and during WWII, by the pure Aryan race of Germans (wacked out population that convinced themselves that they were totally right). This responsibility transcends any on particular ethnic group or religion.
    As I stated–many of my US bretheren that most vociferously support Isreal, and who will brook no criticism, well, these folks also believe that God will destroy all of the Jews, then Jesus will come and save the true believers that Jesus is God’s son and savior of humankind.
    Yes, that is right–the rest of humankind will burn in hell. Well, that is what these wackos believe, this is not hyperbole. These people scare me also.
    But I am also frightened when I hear dehumanizing descriptions of the Palestinian people, and detect a deeply entrenched unwillingness to give thought and creeedence to the fact that these people were also made by God, and also deserve every right that you believe yourselves to have by dint of the fact of your humanity.
    Don’t snear at the idea of Jews and Arabs living side by side and respecting each other”s humanity. I know that a great many Isreali people fight and hope for the same. Just like not all of us Jesus followers/Christians believe that Jews will go to a ‘bad’ place for eternity becuase you don’t subscribe to a belief in Christ as ‘the’ savior.

  39. it’s an interesting thing that those on the left or those on the right seem to define themselves as “the middle ground.” well, um, no, it doesn’t work like that. should the actions of israel be criticized? sure, why not. should the existence of israel as a jewish state be criticized? well, no. you cannot question the right of the jews to have their own state in their own land and simultaneously profess to be the holder of some sort of middle ground. remember, if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck and looks like a duck, it’s probably not a porcupine.
    You can’t have everything. Where would you put it?
    – Rav Steven Wright

  40. 1. “discourse” is a two-syllable word
    2. “You shall not take vengeance [or bear any grudge]:”
    To what extent is the force of vengeance?
    If one says to him, “Lend me your sickle,” and the other did not do so.
    On the next day, the other says to him, “Lend me your spade.”
    The one then replies, “I am not going to lend it to you, because you didn’t lend me your sickle.”
    In that context, it is said, “You shall not take vengeance.”
    . . .
    “but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: [I am the Lord]:”
    Rabbi Akiva says, “This is the encompassing principle of the Torah.”
    (Sifra CC:III.4,5,7)

  41. Right on, sausage. No one in this debate questions the existence of Israel in principle BUT, the issue is if by default a Jewish state means the annihilation of democratic institutes and wise/humane governance. Are you saying that a Jewish theocracy based on an ‘eye for an eye’ and the wholesale murder of all that is perceived to be Amalek is the only way for the Jewish people can hold on to their sovereignty? I guess, that goes hand in hand with forbidding any foreigners from entering Jerusalem, stoning women for adultery, not to mention stubborn and rebellious children. Well, at least won’t have those weak wet-nosed activists, the likes of Avichai Sharon in the post, who’ll never make it past the public gallery
    Hey, does anyone else is thinking Monty Python at this point? Maybe Jewschool can add false-beards to the Hot Gear section… 🙂

  42. the issue is if by default a Jewish state means the annihilation of democratic institutes and wise/humane governance. Are you saying that a Jewish theocracy based on an ‘eye for an eye’ and the wholesale murder of all that is perceived to be Amalek is the only way for the Jewish people can hold on to their sovereignty? I guess, that goes hand in hand with forbidding any foreigners from entering Jerusalem, stoning women for adultery, not to mention stubborn and rebellious children.
    I’m not sure what you mean here. I don’t see where democratic governance has been annihilated, last i checked Israel still elects its leaders. Wise/humane governance is a purely subjective concept. Eye for an eye in the Jewish sense is not understood in literal terms, rather it means compensation of equal value. The Palestinians are not Amalek, I don’t know anyone who is making that claim. In this centure a strong case can be made that the Nazis were Amalek, but the allies did a pretty good job of annihilating them.
    As far as foreigners being forbidden to eneter Jerusalem or women stoned for adultery (or rebellious children for that matter) I don’t recall that happening during the last 57 years of Jewish sovereinty. I think you would be well served to spend a little time in a yeshiva and actually learn what the Talmud portions you refer to actually mean and how they are interpreted before commenting on them. Just a thought.

  43. Schmo Blo
    Actually, the point I was leading to was this. I am pretty sure that JB would not consider Palestinian attacks on Israeli combatants (i.e. the IDF, and the police to some extent) to be terrorism. Well, that cuts both ways. The Palestinian “police” are, effectively, the PA’s armed forces; and they were effectively involved in a war against Israel.

  44. Seems Tounge in cheek does leave enough space for sausages…
    Thanks for the thought and I completely agree I will benefit from Yeshiva training, alas life has taken me to other places so far… And you Yeshiva Bochers are always too sensible to be hanging around the kind of places I live at (I work for an NGO in the thrild world), but that’s not the point. I was referring to your note about the ‘middle ground’. Condoning the kind of actions described in the post is a slippery slope to non-democratic realms. The combination of Jewish and Statehood is difficult at best because of the historical interpretations; the building of a nation based on racial/religious framework is dangerous and there are plenty of historical examples. You say the Jewish State existence in principle is not open to discussion (and I agree), but surely its nature should be an open discourse (ha, that wretched word again) and hotly debated. If you cannot see that we are not doing so well in the last 25 years you are either an optimistic fool (noting wrong with that BTW) or you believe in Jewish superiority. Either way, you could wake up one morning and realise you are ruled by people who have more concern for being right about their belief-system than being just and less qualms about being ruthless when challenged. I can think of one government that fits the bill and it ain’t in Timbuktu.

  45. thou doth make assumptions that perhaps you should not. i have leanred in a yeshiva but i am not a yeshiva bocher. i have travelled extensively throughout *third world* areas in central and south america. and i certainly have not failed to criticize israel’s actions of the previous 25 years, and the 32 before that!
    but what i do know is that there are plenty out there so convinced of their own self righteousness that they automatically label themselves as the normal/just/correct/cen ter and those who disagree are automatically radicals. if you are indeed jewish than i would very much suggest you take a break from your own self-righteousness, stop staring in the mirror and patting yourself back, and try to actually learn a thing or two before bloviating publicly. or, you could just go and continue to bear the white man’s burden in timbuktu and play the martyr while condemning from afar.
    We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can’t scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me.
    – Rav Jack Handy

  46. Quote from the atricle: “Palestinian policemen who facilitated the passage and actively assisted the terrorists who passed through these checkpoints to carry out murderous attacks against Israeli civilians and soldiers.”
    –Who wants to kill people?! Nobody.
    That is why we should move those who want israel’s destruction out of the land to avoid this.

  47. Hey MOb! YOur anti-wall buddies and the other trash, knocked out the eye of an IDF soldier…. Disgusting, you should be ashamed of yourselves…. I am not saying you are directly responsible or the wall group, but you stand hand in hand with those who are, and dont’ seem to care when violence is used towards the IDF… Do us all a favor and tell your wall buddies, to go back to sitting around smoking hookah or following Phish and stay out of the affairs of the brave men and women trying to insure some remants of a Jewish state will remain (Bi Ezrat Hashem)

  48. Sausage, I too have traveled to a few countries in Central America and places in S. Mexico.
    Ever been to Chiapas?
    (my apologies, off topic)

  49. Sausage dear, In making assumptions I am guilty indeed and stand corrected. I assumed you wanted to debate. It seems you are keen on taking everything literally and personally. My humble apologies, I will go and bloviate somewhere else for awhile.
    “When you first start wearing a turban, probably the most common mistake is wrapping it too tight. You have to allow the head to breathe. ” (Handy indeed…)

  50. tee hee, shits and giggles galore! ooh, yes, let’s debate and flex those mental muscles shall we? wait michael, lemme finish jerking off to internet porn first. brb!

  51. “The sodering iron of justice” hits again. Just make sure you don’t strangle the porcupine… 🙂

    Last update – 18:31 07/06/2005
    MK Galon asks IDF prosecutor to probe ‘revenge raid’ by troops
    By Gideon Alon, Haaretz Correspondent
    Yahad faction chairman MK Zahava Galon requested on Tuesday of the Israel Defense Forces chief prosecutor to investigate reports on a raid performed by an IDF force in revenge of the killing of six troops at the Ein Ariq checkpoint near the West Bank city of Ramallah on February 2002.
    In her letter to Brig. Gen. Avi Mandelbilt, Galon said that testimonies of soldiers who participated in the raid indicate that the raid may have been a crime of war, because it was based on an illegal order which should not have been followed.

  53. You kapos at Jewschool should be ashamed of yourselves. You do the dirty work of the anti-Semites for them.
    The selective qutoes with which you introduce this story make it sound as though Israeli soldiers deliberately murdered innocent Arabs in an orgy of blood-lust, and your headline goes out of its way to make Tzahal sound like the SS.
    Once you read the story, though, it turns out to be nothing of the sort: it was a retaliatory raid against PA military elements who had aided and abetted attacks on Israeli soldiers which resulted in the deaths of 6 soldiers. The Arabs who were killed were all armed soldiers and police, and the PA admitted that their “security forces” had actively collaborated in the original attack. No innocent Arabs civilians were touched. This is, indeed, “purity of arms” and it is a great credit to Israel and Jews everywhere. Why? Simple: 1) the Jews showed that Jewish blood is not cheap, and 2) they killed those who had tried to kill them and no one else. If Israel was really like the Nazis, what they would have done is razed a village or two. But, no, they fought other soldiers and killed them. Oy, nebech, what a horrible crime! So some of them were drinking coffeee. Their fault for not being prepared.
    The Israeli reprisal was more than justified. Indeed, it should be a daily, no, an hourly occurrence. Every member of the PA is a legitimate target of attack, and the battle should be carried to them vigorously withour letup untl they realize they cannot blather about a “peace process” while being terrorists.
    Meanwhile, Jewschool should pack up and move to Ramallah where they can be more effective Qusilings for the anti-Semites. Who knows, maybe they can help the Arabs kill Jews, since they seem to think that Jewish self-defense is a bad idea.
    Shame, shame, shame. May your mother curse the day she bore you.

  54. Ephraim wrote: “The selective qutoes with which you introduce this story make it sound as though Israeli soldiers deliberately murdered innocent Arabs in an orgy of blood-lust”
    Well are you challenging the validity of the quotations? Those are from the soldiers who were there. Were you there ?
    Ephraim continued: “The Arabs who were killed were all armed soldiers and police,”
    That’s strange. The article says they were ordered to kill the border guards whether they were armed or not and clearly some of them were not armed and ran in terror. I don’t know what account of the story you’re reading.
    Ephraim continued: “[those killed] had actively collaborated in the original attack. No innocent Arabs civilians were touched. “
    Oh? Where exactly was it conclusively stated that these border guards (not soldiers) had collaborated in an attack ? How are border guards not civilians ? Israeli border guards let people through checkpoints all day every day. If one of those people is involved in an attack then the Israeli border guards must have collaborated with them by your faulty logic. This is obvious bullshit. If they were looking for specific guards then they would have had names and photos. But the soldiers say they were ordered to kill anyone who was there, armed or not.

  55. Read again, Ephraim. All the police were unarmed when they were killed. The soldiers were ordered to “kill them all. Whenever they arrived, we would kill them, regardless whether (they were) armed or not. If they were Palestinian policemen, they were to be shot.”
    “Later we understood, that not one of them … was armed.”
    One of the group’s [Breaking the Silence] spokesmen, Avichai Sharon, a former member of the crack Golani Brigade, claimed the operations on 20 February 2002 were ordered “from high”­ including the Ministry of Defence­ and added: “In my eyes, this is a very harsh example of crossing the moral and human boundaries.”
    He said it indicated that “we are not a defence force any more but a tribe which avenges in blood. As an Israeli, I fear this.”
    From Breaking the Silence:
    The testimonies that were exposed in maariv this weekend
    First Sergeant
    ‘Yael’ Reconnaissance Troup
    Location of the incident
    Palestinian check point in the West Bank
    February 2002
    There was an attack on 6 people here at ‘443’ (designation of our position, or our-held hilltop), 6 soldiers from the Corps of Engineers. Some terrorist arrived at a (our) checkpoint and killed 6. That evening we were rushed off to a room. Suddenly our (Naval) squad commander came from some two-minute long briefing saying ‘Listen….we are doing…our action is a revenge. We are going to kill 6 Palestinian policemen somewhere, revenging our six they took down’. There were about 4 positions beyond our ‘443’ under the control of Palestinian policemen, and we were sent to each of these positions to ‘liquidate’ the Palestinian policemen there.
    Our briefing was also about 2 minutes long, defining our action as a revenge, while I was still deliberating, asking ‘what had they done?’ ‘who are they?’. The answer was: Palestinian policemen. On my question ‘what did they do?’ the answer was’ there was a suspicion that the terrorist who killed our 6 came through that (Palestinian) checkpoint. Suspicion, but no concrete evidence. But I was told: it doesn’t matter; they took six of ours, and we are going to take six of theirs.
    That’s the expression used?
    That’s the expression: ‘revenge’. Also a day later the press reported a ‘revenge action’. It was not hidden (from the public). The announcement clearly read ’revenge action’. It was a crazy ‘blood revenge’ rush. We had a long hike ahead of us to get there and we arrived on foot at around 4AM. There was no one there during the night and the check point was locked for the night. There was some sort of building where they slept, coming down during the day to the checkpoint and staying there.
    And you hid in an ambush?
    We waited for them in an ambush. The idea was simply to kill them all. Whenever they arrived, we would kill them, regardless whether (they were) armed or not. If they were Palestinian policemen, they were to be shot. The order was given and our six opened fire. The first firing was ineffective and missed. They (our, other shooters) were also supposed to hit the street lighting, but missed that too. We got up and fired, hitting two of theirs (the Palestinian policemen), killing the two. But they weren’t killed after all. Pardon me, they were injured: I think we hit one in the shoulder and one in the leg, or something like it, and they escaped. So we continued (shooting). I should add: I shot one in the head as he was running while another one was crawling behind. We got up and started chasing them. It was… really… I really enjoyed it. It was the first time (in my experience) that we were in an ‘advance….storm….’ situation, like in our training exercises. And we acted flawlessly. We performed superbly. And then he (one of the policemen?) ran and we continued to advance. He entered one of the corrugated sheet metal sheds and the four of us sprayed the shed with bullets. A gas cylinder there exploded and everything around caught….
    Meanwhile we had a killed policeman, another one in this burning inferno, and a third one, escaping. We ran after him into a graveyard, or something like a graveyard, stood on the surrounding wall and shot at him. We killed him too ……
    Were they armed?
    Wait a minute. Meanwhile they didn’t shoot at us. Didn’t return fire.
    Except when it all started?
    No! The initial were ours.
    Uh! OK.
    We didn’t run into them and they never fired at us during any phase of the operation. Initially we opened fire from a distance, hitting nothing. Then we got up to storm the position, hitting one of theirs and he escaped. I hit him with another bullet. The second ran into the shed (that caught fire) while we chased the third to the graveyard. The fourth one escaped.
    The guy in the cemetery was killed?
    No (above he was quoted as saying yes, he was killed!). We stood on the wall, shot, and he fell. That was the end. Now the first one who fell lay on the ground and we saw only the lower part of his body. Some boulder hid him. There were three or four (of our guys) who kept shooting at the body, punching holes into it.
    To ‘confirm kill’?
    No. From the excitement of the battle they punched holes, punching him completely

  56. I clicked on one of the links that was provided in the original post on this subject. The article indicated simply that in retaliation for the murder of 6 Israeli soldiers by terrorists, the IDF conducted a reprisal raid and killed PA policemen/border guards.I didn’t read anything else.
    I don’t see anything particularly wrong with killing enemy soldiers in retalliaton for the killing of your soldiers. The PA is a terrorist organization, no different from the PLO (actually, it is the PLO) Hamas, Hizb’allah, etc. They are part and parcel of the terrorist infrastructure, and at no time have they ever done anything to stop Arab terror against Jews. Indeed, they do everything in their power to aid and abet it. This makes them all complicit, and, thus, fair game. Like Clint Eastwood said, “Well, he should armed himself”. Why should these guys feel that they can just sit around without their weapons when they know that they belong to an organization whose main job is killing Jews? If Israel was doing its job they would all be quaking in their boots in fear for their lives.
    The PA/PLO/Hamas, etc. are all in a state of war with Israel. There is no peace, and only fools pretend that there is. There is also no law of war that says you have to tell the enemy “Yoo hoo, here we come! Get ready!” when you attack them. There is simply no good reason that PA terrorists should get to sit around feeling safe from the Jews while they either passively permit, or acticely engage in, terror against Israel.
    If the Arabs were afraid that Israel would take revenge for the murder of their citizens, perhaps they would be afraid enough to stop killing Jews.
    In any case, the obvious attempt by whoever it was who posted this story to make this into a “let’s kill the untermenschen” thing is just shameful. One can argue about whether the way in which the raid was conducted was moral or not, but it was clearly NOT part of any Nazi-like genocide campaign, and trying to portray it as such is not something a Jew should do.

  57. MR Brown?
    I do not follow. Do you object to the Israeli doctrine of PEulat Tagmul(intiated responce missoins) froma tactical or a moral standpoint? Of course whether you were a soldier yourself or simply a student of the dicsppline U do understand how emotional it can be. Therefore the emotions expressed by soldiers either positive or negative….will be out of context when expressed in objective print. Now in order to better respond to your position (which I think I disagree with) I need further clarafacation, thank you.

  58. Israel did not make this the gang war that it has become. In its desire to become a generally responsible modern state, Israel established its monompoly on violence with the sadly necessary Altalena incident. Today the emergent Palestinian state has failed to establish its monopoly on violence, while evidence suggests that elements of the Arab-Muslim establishment actively discourages Palestinian leadership from doing so (ie, the continued arming and militancy of Palestinian militias like Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, etc., by Iran and Syria [via Hezbollah]). This is a gang war that follows not from the particular assertion of Jewish national self-determination, but rather from the complete rejection of it by the Arab-Muslim establishment. It is simply unfair to condemn the Jewish side in this dirty little war.

  59. What J Brigade fails to understand is the simple fact that we are at war. If you base your entire rethoric on the fact that Israel is at Peace with its neighbors I can see how you could consider our actions unjust. You are an alarmist trying to paint a bleak picture of Israel and the IDF. I am not even sure you’ve been to Israel, a democracy that works. They don’t need J brig to condemn their actions, their courts will take care of it, so chill. Can we say the same about Palestine? Obviously not. When was the last time you condemned their actions? Those need to be seen around the world because they are not a democracy and their courts will not take care of any injustices. The fact that you went to Chiapas probably means you dream of being the next Che Guevarra of some sort. Take it easy Mr. Philosophical Rebel, Israel is not a puppet and definitely not an extension of some sort of imperial North America.
    Have there been innocents killed or maimed on the Palestinian side? Sure there have, why would you expect anything else? Have you tried throwing rocks at a tank or an army? Not the smartest idea. Do you blame parents for letting their kids go out into a battlefield? Have you ever thought about blaming them? Have you ever blamed those same parents, communities and PA propaganda machine for raising those kids to have no fear of death? To be glorified in death, while killing Jews? Isn’t the better analogy for Nazism?
    The great majority of Israelis and Jews worldwide seek peace. Can you say the same about Palestinians or even the Muslim middle east?
    You claim that the end result is equivalent, innocents get killed or maimed, but the means were justified as the intention is clearly to avoid civilian casualty on the Israeli side VS. Maximizing civilian casualty on the Palestinian side. But since you have decided to take all wounded/killed human beings, no matter how or why as the same, then let’s look at this in numbers, which is what they end up being in your analysis. When the IDF attacks, intercepts or protect they are in fact saving many potential lives at the cost of a few. When Palestinians attack, don’t intercept or do not uphold the law they are directly or indirectly killing many more civilians than they are saving.
    Are revenge killings wrong? Yes. Are they wrong in the context of war? No. Should anyone be prosecuted for this? Yes. Is the press or J brig right in condenming the IDF? No, they don’t have proof that those killed were not involved in directly or indirectly killing 6 Israelis.
    Either way you look at it, there is no reason to jump on the IDF on this issue and Israel as a whole when justice is so much more prevalent in Israel than in ANY Muslim middle east country.

  60. bottom line: in any war, nice guys finish last.
    that said, the israeli army has displayed a fair amount of humanity in its actions. they’ve been brutal as well but no where near Hizzbolah’s infamous sadistic torture routines (castrating Israeli soldiers was common punishment for being caught), nor wanton murder of innocents.
    armies have to function in the most inhumane of conditions and as the old phrase goes: chasing monsters can turn you into one. nice boys named avram don’t fire bullets into the skulls of those who would do the same to them (and worse) with ease. we’re all human here and none of us were raised to kill. it’s plain unnatural and in conflict with our Neshama’s mandate of Life. But in those war situations it MUST be done. and if their mindset must be that all terrorists are animals and undeserving of the same virtues of humans, then all the power to ’em. i pray for those soldiers’ sanity in the years to come afterwards. i know WW2 heroes who tortured and killed Nazi squads and boobie, they have nightmares to this day.. long after your army service ends, you’re a man with emotions and a moral compass that needs to capable of raising a family, loving a wife, etc. Not easy.
    For us in these lofty forums, Mr. Brown has a pertinent argument. Not for Israeli boys trying to make peace between their souls and their trigger fingers- just for us. We civilians must never confuse ourselves with soldiers. We cannot look upon the Muslim community nor terrorists as scum. We don’t have to kill terrorists. that’s what soldiers are for. our job is to encourage peace and deflate the atmosphere of war that is also fuelled outside Israel’s borders.
    If our mandate is to be a Light Onto Other Nations, then let’s get it on already.

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