The new guy
So…Mobius kindly invited me to join the Jewschool blog team, which I really appreciate.
My name’s Asaf, born and raised in Israel and moved here this summer – now I’m a philosophy student at NYU. Please excuse any of my grammatical mistakes – English is my more or less second language.
Back in Israel I was mostly active in the Youth Refusal movement a.k.a. the Shministim. Here in NYC I am co-founder of the Israel Forum. Our last event with Tony Judt at Columbia University packed a 400-person auditorium.
Here’s an essay I published in CounterPunch: From Israeli Refusenik to Organizer: AWOL in New York.
One more thing – my nickname is only temporary. And thanks again Mobius.
Hi Asaf! I’ve read your father’s site for a while now, and heard of you via JATO.
Welcome to the site – I’m really glad to see you’re going to be writing here.
yo asaf, this is eli from slc, good to see you on the forum!
kol tuv,
eli
great, mobius’s ink of vitriol is running thin, so while replenishing, hes brought on another jewish jew hater. look forward to more anti israeli, anti semetic crap. oh lord, oh lord, why why why???
Avi,
I think that is harsh, and uncalled for. Although any of my opinions may differ drastically from yours, or Asaf’s, we should be interested in what we all say. Keep in mind that Asaf is coming from an entirely different realm of experience, that of an Israeli who has relinquished his position in that society because of, what he claims, is a larger moral purpose. Perhaps we should work hard to express ourselves to him, showing him that many American Jews have to fight every day to preserve traditions and political views that Israeli’s view as parts of everyday life and sadly enough, take for granted.
– eli
many American Jews have to fight every day to preserve traditions and political views that Israeli’s view as parts of everyday life and sadly enough, take for granted.
… though you’d be surprised at how much American Jews seem to take granted, compared with societies where Jews are much more of a minority, ie not integrated into the mainstream of cultural life. (By which I mean: the rest of the world.)
Agreed, 8opus, the situations of Jews in the FSU and other areas, such as Cuba, is closely related to the antisemitism that doesn’t allow them to integrate fully into the cultural life of their host countries. However, I was trying to express that our integration into American society is two pronged. Whereas those Jews who became economically successfull started to associate their Jewishness more with “long island bar mitzvahs” and urban outfitters t-shirts outlining Jewish girl’s affection for $$$, Jews who maintained the traditions of the ancestors remain at the fringe of American life. Jews caught in the middle, like many of the Jews in this forum, tend to regard their Jewishness as something constantly being appropriated to secular, western and gentile American life – Matisyahu, soon to be known as a true cult hero, is showing the new face of Jewishness in the face of the adversity I outlined earlier. In Israel, the stoplights are as Jewish as the girls, the marichaaauana as jewish as the falefel. Here, we struggle to redefine our Jewish selves because what lies around us certainly not.
Interesting, and well-put. I guess what I was getting at was this part Here, we struggle to redefine our Jewish selves because what lies around us certainly not. My feeling, when in NYC (and, to a gradually lesser extent depending where, elsewhere in the U.S.), is that what lies around you is a great deal more Jewish than most diaspora Jews have ever experienced. It’s one of the weird in-between things about American Jewishness, it seems to me.
Like: those Jews who became economically successfull started to associate their Jewishness more with “long island bar mitzvahs” and urban outfitters t-shirts outlining Jewish girl’s affection for $$$. My gut feeling has always been that that has much to do with living in a country whose popular culture has been very much defined by Jews who, it goes without saying, imprinted a rather weird relationship with Jewishness into public America. In a great many places, Jews just wouldn’t be comfortable with those kinds of t-shirts, and so forth.
In Israel, the stoplights are as Jewish as the girls, the marichaaauana as jewish as the falefel. (Tiny little nitpicky thing: Israel is 80% Jewish, and it has a special relationship to the Jewish people. But I think one of the challenges we need to face is to move beyond equating that relationship between Israel and Jewishness to a purely Jewish Israel. Israeli stoplights are as Jewish as Quebec stoplights are French-Canadian or Madrid stoplights are Castillian — in all cases, there’s more going on, and the responsibility we have is to keep that in mind.)
Just because Asaf comes from Israel does not mean he has anything authoritative to say on the subject. Anything he says just represents his own childish beliefs. Fact is, he is more than willing to live in a country such as the US where policemen and security agents put their lives on the line every day for him to feel safe, but he isn’t willing to do the same in Israel. The fact is, democracy can only exist when people put in their due, and Asaf is a freeloader of the worst kind–one who takes and not only does not say thank you, but spits in the pot.
Howdy Asaf,
I assume you’re not squeemish when it comes to confrontation….
That said, you ought to know that alot of us read Counterpunch like we read Final Call or Spotlight.
avi green called me a jewish jew hater.
shlomo attributed to me childish beliefs.
not i am not squeamish when it comes to confrontation, but this is not serious confrontation, but simply hateful, childish remarks.
When people cant deal with arguments they deal with the person who said them.
people ridicule my decision to refuse by saying its childish naivity – if i am so naive, how can u trust me to be a soldier and fight in situation where moral situations are so complex that asa kaser (taref) himself wouldn’t know what to do? moreover, now that shlomo pointed out that my political perspective is based on childish beliefs, how can i trust myself with a weapon?
“When people cant deal with arguments they deal with the person who said them.” EXACTLY CHAVER! If you think for a second that people who listen to your arguments don’t also take into consideration you’re an 18 year old philosophy student who chose between Tzahal and Washington Square Park (and they certainly should), than I have to think you are a bit naive.
It’s the same paradigm that allows critics of Israel to criticize the “apartheid wall” without at least exploring its benefits if it followed the green line. Even you, Asaf, who seemed to have lived only a stoned from Qalqilyah, can recognize the nuance.
only a /stone’s throw/ is what I meant. Marijuana day is comin up in Israel, i can’t resist my slips. SSSFFFFFFF///exhale….
people ridicule my decision to refuse by saying its childish naivity Well, a couple of guys did. I wouldn’t worry about it too much — anyone who takes a public position will invariably be criticized; a proportion of criticism will always be ad hominem name-calling, some more sophisticated than others.
this is not serious confrontation, but simply hateful, childish remarks. Yep. Move on. Some criticism seeks to build a dialogue; some is just childish. It would be a shame if you chose — as so many do — to engage only with the latter.
Props to Mobius
Mobius melech yisss…not quite, but getting closer..
eli,
one remark about your remark about the appartheid wall – why do u think critics of israel need to “explore the benefits” of a wall which is non-existent?
I don’t think I understand you’re remark/question…
“It’s the same paradigm that allows critics of Israel to criticize the “apartheid wall” without at least exploring its benefits if it followed the green line. Even you, Asaf, who seemed to have lived only a stoned from Qalqilyah, can recognize the nuance.” – why do critics of israel need to explore the benefit of a wall which does not exist- a wall on the green line?
OO I see. Here is my response: If there had been a strong voice of compromise, one that balanced the radical left’s opposition to a wall at all, and the right’s wish to dig deep into Palestinian land in order to protect settlements, perhaps a wall closer to the green line would have at least been entertained. It’s fairly clear that Labor, most notably Ephraim Sneh, had advocated for this type of wall early on in the process but was abandoned by his colleagues due to such radicalism from both sides. Being that much of Jewish(meaning in america and israel) public opinion revolves around the increasing polarization of the Israeli left and kippah sruga/pro-settler camps, I wish all the cats who were so anti-wall would have realized that their energies should have focused more on compromise with our knit-kippot friends rather than fighting them on the basis of ideological opinion. Even Asaf, who confided in me that he had worn tefillin every morning as a boy, can understand the depth of the Israeli population that so sucessfully supported the settler’s wall. The key to fighting that wall was swallowed. A wall along the green line would have been just as Jewish, but no one heard those who were saying that. I’m reminded of my visit to Kochav Yair, an affluent community not far from the green line. It is where Ehud Barak has a house. Bombs were planted there not too long ago. Now being that this sort of violence doesn’t care much about any individual Jew’s politics, a compromise on that wall may have made it easier to dismantle it in the future. But than again, “fighting privilege with privilege” is still fighting, and we need less of that in general.
I’m reminded of Gershom Scholem’s quote (which I will now botch rather crudely)
“The Palestinians care not about the morality of our political convictions, but whether we are hear at all”
It may sound like a sweeping generalizing attempt at uncovering the truth, but so is advocating the smashing of an illegal, land grabbing wall that so ironically gives Israeli mothers peace of mind, and Palestinian mothers a heart attack.
b’shalom
Eli
First of all, just fyi – i lived most of my life in kochav-yair (2-16 and I am only 19 so u get the deal)- thats not so relevant to what i was going to say.
Anyhow- ACTUALLY- everybody in israel thought that the wall will be built on the green line but they were deceived.
Regardless, your point is a strategic point but i think u give too much credit to the left in israel. the wall’s current path is its natural path in the current political situation in israel, where the extreme right is in government and where state terrorism is undeniably part of its agenda.
I would go to the extent and say that the wall is being also for ethnic cleansing. i’ve seen farmers who are forced to move because of the wall.
in budrus- which is near the green line, the wall doesnt pass on the green line but a few hundreds meters closer to budrus, so all the land with the olive trees cannot be reached. where’s the security logic behind that? this is a form of oppression. the wall wouldnt have been built if it would have been on the green line, because it wouldnt serve the purpose it was built for (which is not security)
I’m glad that we are having this exchange, your presence surely enriches the discourse. I enjoyed Kochav Yair, it is a nice community.
In response, I’ll respond to a few points.
“Anyhow- ACTUALLY- everybody in israel thought that the wall will be built on the green line but they were deceived. Regardless, your point is a strategic point but i think u give too much credit to the left in israel. the wall’s current path is its natural path in the current political situation in israel, where the extreme right is in government and where state terrorism is undeniably part of its agenda.”
I don’t suppose to know what /everybody/ thinks anywhere, that’s a pretty big assumption, especially because all any Israeli needed to do was drive a car. Unlike the Palestinians, Israelis can drive anywhere they like.
In regards to referring to /state terrorism/, which I assume you mean what the government calls “targeted assassinations” and the building of a “security fence” I think it’s important to realize that this term is loaded with nuance and its possible to call anything terrorism (the US is quite guilty of that!), including the beating of a Hasid in Brooklyn. Echoing this terminology seems to only strengthen an alliance with the left, which, undeniably, is dominated by western intellectuals that, I must assure you, our only your comrades in ideology, not humanity. In regards to ethnic cleansing, I just think thats sort of funny.
If the state of Israel was guilty of ethnic cleansing, its been the most unsuccessful ethnic cleansing in the history of man. No one would be worried about bombings, the democratic nature of Israel, or the Hamas if ethnic cleansing had occurred. Hell, Israeli Palestinians and Palestinians in Yesha would be like the ghosts of “white Ashkenazi Jews” who lived and died in the ghettos of Krakow and Lublin, etc. If we expand our thinking a little bit, The Syrian Military crushing a 10,000 member strong Kurdish intifada was far more successful and adds a more comparative dimension to the so called “ethnic cleansing” you accuse the Israeli army of perpetrating. Don’t let your choice of words allow you to become a puppet for those people on the Left who would have loved to champion your great-great grandmother’s Jewish victimhood but would readily diminish the humanity of your future Jewish children, so long as their father had lived and breathed in “The Zionist enemy state”
There are grave moral implications to employing your terminology. Considering morality drives your political activism, its interesting to note the very nature of antisemitism propagates the myth that Jewish presence anywhere stifles, cleanses, and oppresses the masses.
We shouldn’t be blind to the fact that Jewish people have a very human ability to oppress others, its also important to note that, even as a Jew and Israeli, using Jews as the benchmark on which to measure morality is so so simple, and potentially immoral.
kol tuv
eli
why are asafs positions any different than those of current nazis? seriously, his words coming out of the mouth of david duke would surprise only because david duke, at least in public, is more moderate to israel than asaf. asaf, if you couldnt take the pressure of facing the threat of murder by muslims in israel, i cant blame you, im not living in israel either. but please dont take it out on those israelis willing to stay in israel, who would rather fight than move to europe or america.
u know avi, i was passing by once next to a demonstration of “Free Palestine”. One of the demonstrators was attacked by the israelis passing by, supposedly violently (i have no clue, got there after that actually happened). So once of the demonstrators shouted out something like this: “You see! all the israelis are Nazis! They do not let freedom of speech even in NYC!”
Obviously this man is a racist. I then told a fellow demonstrator that I was shocked as an israeli and peace activist. The demonstrator answered and said – well, he’s right, the nazis did the same things- they occupied, forbid freedom of speach etc.. so i told him that both nazis and americans smoke. does that make the american nazis? there are various levels of oppression to pass before deserving the name of a nazi.
Avi, you didn’t even call me a neo-nazi but a nazi. I am replying to you seriously because i respect you as a human being. You are throwing around words in order to provoke. But you’re not the first and definitely not the last person to call me a nazi. If you wanted to insult me, u didnt succeed because i told believe in the sincerity of your words. if you really wanted to criticize my ideas, thats pretty easy. just see what eli’s doing.
or to sum it all up – stop saying stupid remarks which dont make u seem so intelligent.
asaf, perhaps your reading comprehension isnt yet up to speed (unfortunately, nyu wont help you there, youre more likely to become au courant on current leftist thought than correct usage of english); please reread my post, nowhere did i call you a nazi, i said that your positions mirrored those of nazis (except for calling for the extermination of jews). go on any nazi website; youll recognize kindred ideas.
I enjoyed that story Asaf and I echo it, big upzz.
“you didn’t even call me a neo-nazi but a nazi. I am replying to you seriously because i respect you as a human being. You are throwing around words in order to provoke. But you’re not the first and definitely not the last person to call me a nazi.”
And that very quote confuses me, because just as you accuse avi of (very wrongfully) throwing around words to provoke, i ask that very question in regards to your posts today, which by all fronts accused Israel of many of the same policies of Nazi regime. As a fellow thinker on this subject in general, it is a question I grapple with every day.
UPDATED VERSION
I enjoyed that story Asaf and I echo it, big upzz.
“you didn’t even call me a neo-nazi but a nazi. I am replying to you seriously because i respect you as a human being. You are throwing around words in order to provoke. But you’re not the first and definitely not the last person to call me a nazi.”
And that very quote confuses me, because just as you accuse avi of (very wrongfully) throwing around words to provoke, i ask that very question in regards to your posts today, which by all fronts accused Israel of many of the same policies as the Nazi regime. Although you never personally say Israeli=Nazi, you certainly use words that imply that analogy potentially, if not openly. It is from that point that I question the /frame/ in which you perform your activism. As a fellow thinker on this subject in general, it is a question I grapple with every day. Unfortunately, I’ve yet to find solace in witnessing your quest for justice.
avi. Asaf is very correct, I think. don’t act like a idiot, you’re not even worth calling a m_s_uguna.
Asaf, you crack my ass up. The spectacle of a white ashkenazi boy throwing big words around and fighting on behalf of the allegedly oppressed, is one I always look at with wonderment. I think what your arguement lack is any form of nuance. I see black and I see white. I see no greys. Your vision of Israel does not reflect the reality of a state that just appointed Salim Jubran, an Israeli Arab, to the Supreme Court. Your vision of the middle east completely ignores the trials and tribulations experienced by Sephardic Jews in their countries of origin. Why is it that these people, who speak arabic and have more culturally in common with the Palestinians than they do with you and your Western European ilk, why is it that they do not seem to be hobbled by existential angst when it comes to issues related to the defense of the country?
The few sephardic members in your little refusenick movement are heavily influenced by this ashkenazic malaise. As for the rest of them, they cannot even concieve of the concept of jetting off to New York to study philosophy. Anyhow, enjoy wallowing in your angst and in your white man’s guilt from the safety of your perch in New York. You are a product of the sickness known as the diaspora. Welcome back home. We’ll be seeing you around Asaf….
eli show show me one place where i hint of nazi=israel.
dave, i never denied i am privilaged. on the other i refused to take part in organizations which perpetuate privilagism. so what do u want me to do? unborn myself? does my color of skin define my political agenda?
so what do u want me to do? unborn myself? does my color of skin define my political agenda? I can’t know what Dave is thinking, but it sounds to me like the suggestion is to throw it the posing, sloganeering, misrepresentation, and other cheap publicity tactics and start with a position that recognises the humanity of all sides of this issue.
As in: ethnic cleansing. Which entered the Arab-Israeli debate only after it got thrown into public discourse via ex-Yugoslavia. Which, there, meant throwing people into concentration camps and trying to perpetuate wholesale genocide. Which bears that taint. If you’re trying to imply that Israel is moving to kill Palestinians and wipe them off the face of the Earth, just use the word genocide, be done with it, and be prepared to defend an absurd idea. If that’s not what you’re trying to imply, well, then don’t — use honest language.
As in: the wall’s current path is its natural path in the current political situation in israel, where the extreme right is in government and where state terrorism is undeniably part of its agenda. Bullshit. The barrier’s route got changed by the Supremne Court. It could have further been changed with smarter mobilisation and more inviting tactics. But instead of actually trying to change its path, a bunch of self-described “activists” allied with a bunch of fascist governments went to the ICC, had a giant mascarade, turned the question of the barrier into the nth iteration of Israel’s legitimacy as a state, and polarized opinion — alienating support, as usual, by turning it from where-should-the-barrier-run to should-Israel-exist.
What to do? Try: win support for more humane policies. Hint: alienating folks by caricaturing, ridiculing, and demonising is often a poor way to win their support.
I hope every1 round here had a good shabbat. I echo Mo. In reponse to providing evidence of you /hinting/ at “israel=nazi” – here are some examples –
“where the extreme right is in government and where state terrorism is undeniably part of its agenda.
I would go to the extent and say that the wall is being also for ethnic cleansing. i’ve seen farmers who are forced to move because of the wall.”
now, of course, you never specifically equate even the israeli government with the nazi government. However, as even you have posted, you recognize the obvious relationship that Jews and Nazi’s have in history. Whenever someone accuses Israel of patently-false crimes that happened to also have been truly committed by the nazis, the two sadly arise together. Ethnic Cleansing and “state terrorism” being two examples.
I know there is a range of intellectual debate on the role of the holocaust in world conciousness, from Elie Wiesel to Norman Finkelstein. But, as you will soon see, the Holocaust plays a very different role in the conciousness of American Jews as opposed to Israeli Jews. Whereas an Israeli walks around everyday knowing his leaders are Jewish, you’re army is, more or less, a Jewish army, realities of antisemitism and jewish discomfort outside your door are theoretical, not realistic – most American Jews feel an incredible distance from these facts, Israel being thousands of miles away. As ck dave said before, welcome to the Diaspora, it’s no longer Moshe Dayan and Golda, It’s woody allen and jerry seinfeld. grab a cup of coffee at a deli on 8th street, asaf, and prepare to watch Jews make fun of themselves.
“whenever someone accuses Israel of patently-false crimes that happened to also have been truly committed by the nazis, the two sadly arise together. Ethnic Cleansing and “state terrorism” being two examples.”- what the…!? ethnic cleansing was done by many countries, and so was state terrorism. what do nazis have to do with anything?
Dont impose your own thoughts into my writing. thanks.
O I’m sorry, I guess I didn’t express myself clearly enough.
Any citizen of this world, and especially those citizens of Jewish persuasion, are very concious of the violent historical relationship between Jews and Nazis. Unless you haven’t realized that everytime you accuse Israel (a state which, in reality, is a majority Jewish nation) of perpetrating crimes which you define as “ethnic cleansing” and “state terrorism” against another group of people, all those who read it will be reminded of the “ethnic cleansing” and “state terrorism” that was perpetrated against the Jewish minority communities in lands stretching from Russia to Morrocco. Whether or not your political beliefs permit you to believe it, the shadow of those times holds a unique space in the Jewish intellect and heart. Because you have said you respect Avi as a human being, perhaps you can begin to understand that the terminology you use (which has been criticized by both Mobius, myself, and many others on this forum) causes some Jewish people great pains of the intellect and heart. Their pains are not because they deny the Jewish ability to oppress like the rest of humanity, but because they know your claims are gravely misrepresented, if not lies. That is why they may accuse you of being an antisemite. Perhaps reaching out to them is better than fighting their privilege with yours.
I am sorry if you think I am imposing my thoughts into your writing, but I have no other choice. I see you effectively distancing yourself from the very Jews who want more than anything to build your case for a just Israel, and we would assume, a civil dialogue between men.
In response to your rebuttal:
“ethnic cleansing was done by many countries, and so was state terrorism. what do nazis have to do with anything?”
They have to do the fact nazi state terrorism and ethnic cleansing was perpetrated against those “white ashkenazi jews” whom you choose fight with your privilege. If you want to forget that, I’m sure many in Israel, including veteran peace activists and writers like David Grossman, would gladly relinquish your comraderie.
I’m hoping reading our remarks, all of our remarks, will help you begin to realize you, like all of us, need to /progress/ our thinking..this is a progressive Jewish blog, right?
ok, so at least we both agree that it is your own creative interpretation of what i wrote.
Regarding the way i choose my terminology – leave political strategy to me. thats my own business as a political activist. beyond that, you cannot call me an antisemite or assume that i was even thinking about the nazis when talking ethnic cleansing, just because in your brain that’s the association you make. you may say i will have a problem communicating with the american jewish community, and thats a valid point- but once again, thats my own business.
if we’re talking about strategy, i have a very simple way of convincing american jews of my views – i simply give them facts. propaganda is very useful to a point – when a talk to many american jews, they give me all these rediculous slogans about the palestinians that remind me of golda meir. all i need to do is show them facts and many times that helps them think for themselves for once.
i use harsh terminology not because I like it. all of my friends are in the military which is commiting those war crimes. but since i know the human side of the story, i know that i am not talking out of hate to israel. i dream about israel as a place a want to be in but cant, not as a place a hate. that fact – that i love where i was born (not in any political sense of course), makes me feel comfortable criticizing it using the most harsh but accurate words i can find.
Beyond strategy of course you dont have any right to tell me what terminology to use unless you prove me that the terminology is wrong. up until now all you did is talk about american- jewish paranoia (which also exists in israel, believe me).
one more thing – you welcomed me to the american-jewish community. let me remind you – i am israeli, not an american-jew. I am not going to change the way i think just because i moved here this summer. on the other hand, my alienation from the jewish community has also a positive aspect to it.
Alright bro. Judging from that last post, I think you’re beginning to think for yourself.
“you may say i will have a problem communicating with the american jewish community, and thats a valid point- but once again, thats my own business.
if we’re talking about strategy, i have a very simple way of convincing american jews of my views – i simply give them facts. propaganda is very useful to a point – when a talk to many american jews, they give me all these rediculous slogans about the palestinians that remind me of golda meir. all i need to do is show them facts and many times that helps them think for themselves for once.
i use harsh terminology not because I like it. all of my friends are in the military which is commiting those war crimes. but since i know the human side of the story, i know that i am not talking out of hate to israel. i dream about israel as a place a want to be in but cant, not as a place a hate. that fact – that i love where i was born (not in any political sense of course), makes me feel comfortable criticizing it using the most harsh but accurate words i can find.”
/All you need to do is make that clear/, so far, I’m not convinced, nor are many others. I’m not really arguing that you’re use of terminology is antisemitic, or that you in any way have some sort of self-hatred. I actually believe the contrary. Like many others, i argue you’re terminology because it is wrong, and because of this, it detracts immensely from your strengths as a “political activist.”
“Beyond strategy of course you dont have any right to tell me what terminology to use unless you prove me that the terminology is wrong. up until now all you did is talk about american- jewish paranoia (which also exists in israel, believe me). ”
As I noted before, if ethnic cleansing had occurred, if genocide occurrs, well its been the most unsuccessful genocide in history. That’s not a matter of strategy, it is a matter of fact. Even Mobius has argued your terminolgy. I’m just sad you think shock value is more important than truth.
You SHOULD help American Jews see the disgusting actions of cutting down olive trees, expropriating land, and killing innocent civilians in the middle of an unbalanced, sad war. But, also, since you love those friends bored out of their minds with m16s at checkpoints in the shomrom, you can at least afford them the same human dignity you give the palestinians and not wrongly accuse their uniforms of “ethnic cleansing” and “terrorism” that so many of your opponents readily throw at the Palestinians you defend. If that is impossible for you, then this is more about your work as a self proclaimed “radical leftist” who is only interested in applying that ideology to your native land, just because you happen to be an Israeli, and not an American Jew.
On connecting to the American Jewish community, there are some dope American Jews out there, and many are worth befriending.
” I’m just sad you think shock value is more important than truth.”
No- i already said that sadly, the shock value that accompanies my terminology is a side effect to the accuracy of it.
the ethnic cleansing is definitely not very good one. I never said the Israeli army is doing a good job in what its doing.
And yes- i have a lot of respect to my friends and dont accuse them of commiting war crimes, for the same reason i dont accuse every palestinain for being a terroirst.
The only reason I use the word terror when talking about particular israeli military action is for the sake of consistency – both sides use terror.
“people ridicule my decision to refuse by saying its childish naivity – if i am so naive, how can u trust me to be a soldier and fight in situation where moral situations are so complex that asa kaser (taref) himself wouldn’t know what to do? moreover, now that shlomo pointed out that my political perspective is based on childish beliefs, how can i trust myself with a weapon?”
Political views aside, is this a real argument, or is it just flame to anger readers? For you sake, i hope its the latter because if not you are quite the retard. If you would like I could explain it to you in more detail, but im sure you will figure it out upon careful review. Until then, please refrain from all attempts to engage in analytical thought.
i was twisting shlomo’s words around against himself. of course i can trust myself with a weapen, including my own body. But when someone tells me that i am only 18 so i have no right/clue/maturity to decide to refuse, i just point out to the fact this is argument (if true, and its not) means that while maybe i dont have the ability to decide to refuse, i also dont have the ability to decide to join the army. thats why there is mandatory draft.
which brings me to my last point – almost all of those who decided to refuse did so after many months/years of thinking, after being challeneged by a whole society that is telling them they must join the army when they are 18. Thats why i can assume that a refuser, on average, took much more time to think about the decision whether or not to join the army, simply because of the fact that refusal is not something you “just do” – it has major consequences. of course this does not mean that there are a lot of people who thinking about the decision to join the army and DO decide to refuse. I know many people like this, among them some of my best friends. The problem is that what made them thing about it in the first place was the fact that i decided to refuse. I assume that most people join the army without thinking to much about it. In that sense, the political refusers at least deserve the minimal credit for being thinking people. almost all refusers i know were willing to serve alternative service instead of the army. I know many refusers, who after released, actually did do this service although there was no legal obligation to do so.
oops= i meant to say “of course that does not mean that there are a lot of people who think about the deicison to join the army and DO decide to serve” not- “Do decide to refuse” as i wrote above.
ever notice how old time marxists, castro, and asaf and other extreme left polemists dont know how to write inciteful, declarative statements. theyre so in love with their own thoughts they cant deprive their audience of a single wayward idea. hmmm, interesting sociology research…………the totalitarian mind as narcissist.
Regarding the way i choose my terminology – leave political strategy to me. thats my own business as a political activist. (…) Beyond strategy of course you dont have any right to tell me what terminology to use unless you prove me that the terminology is wrong.
How odd: perhaps you should make guidelines as to which statements it is permissible to criticise, and which statements it is impermissible to criticise. That way everyone can follow the rules, and criticise only where it is permitted.
But just for fun: okay, the statement about ethnic cleansing is incorrect. The State of Israel has neither committed genocide nor attempted it. It does much which is objectionable, of course: but you’re not talking about that. Instead you’re choosing ridiculous accusations — causing me to oppose you — instead of publicly opposing the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, a criticism which would bring us together. Your choice, obviously.
when a talk to many american jews, they give me all these rediculous slogans about the palestinians that remind me of golda meir. Grin: and you choose to imitate them.
Let me suggest an alternative. Don’t. Move beyond slogans, and try democratic communication for a change. It’s harder. It takes longer. But, unlike the sloganeering and the propaganda, it’s actually consistent with the goals you say you espouse:
Dont impose your own thoughts into my writing. See, that’s the thing about communicating with others: you need them to think about what you’re saying, because that’s the only way they can understand. If you’re worried about how others understand what you say, you may want to consider rethinking how you say it.
good points. You’re not the first one to tell me this and i especially liked your last remark (regarding, “dont impose”) so i will take your points into consideration. I am not sure i agree on everything but the criticism in general is valid.
Hmm. well i’m glad to see Mobius get Asaf’s respect and consideration.
Oi Va Voi.
mmmmm….yes, lets continue to vilify those horrible israelis, just because they cant put up with a little militant action like the following without treacherously reacting back: Jerusalem – The bodies of 34-year-old Tali Hatuel and her four young daughters were laid to rest Sunday evening in Ashkelon. Mrs. Hatuel, who was eight months pregnant, was a resident of the Katif settlement in Gaza and worked as a social worker for the Gaza Coast Regional Council. She and her daughters – Hila, 11, Hadar, 9, Roni, 7, and Merav, 2, were shot to death Sunday by Palestinian gunmen According to police, the Hatuels’ station wagon veered off the road after the initial shooting. The attackers then approached the car and shot all the occupants at point blank range.
please note that the murderers of the little girls, who walked up to their car and shot a mother, her 2 year old daughter, her 7 year old daughter, her 9 year old daughter, and her 11 year old daughter, AT POINT BLANK RANGE, were treated as heroes by palestinian crowds “celebrating” their achievment.
kind of makes you want to tell asaf to just fuck off; but in pre teen intellectual circles that would be uncool, so well let the little refugee from israeli oppression continue to pontificate: you go, asaf
avi “gideon levy” green, israel used measures of terror much before the suicide attacks began in the 90s. during the first intifada, the military would tare down houses of families of people who threw molotov bottles at tanks.
Hmm, i didnt know you knew karate, that changes everything. I guess you are mature enough to make such decisions (that is, if my dad doesnt beat up your dad first).
You sound like a nice guy, and im sure you consider yourself a thoughtful person, but im sorry, you sound as if youre forming your opinion based on naive and childish ideals. This isnt to say that an adult wouldnt come to the same conclusion as you, but its pretty clear based on your reasoning and analogies that you are only 17 or 18 years old, and your “years of thinking” were done while you were very young, with too limited exposure to make such an informed decision (Now, if you were refusing out of fear of harm, this is something I can understand, and am in no position to question).
And just to respond to your other point. Throughout history, teenagers and young adults have been considered suitable to join and fight in armies. This does not mean that 18 year olds are mature and thoughtful enough to trusted with making any decision out there, like drinking alcohol, for example.
well jimbo thanks for your respect to me.
the question – if i am not mature enough to decide to refuse, does this mean i am mature enough to decide to fight in a war? If one says i do not have the “exposure” and ability to make informed decision in regards to refusing, how can i join the army with a peace of mind?
Read the second part of my post above. I think i made it quite clear that being a good soldier and being mature enough to make certain decisions are completely separate concepts, and are not comparable (i.e. drinking alcohol=21, military draft=18). In almost every country in the world, and society throughout history the age at which one was old to enough to be suitable to fight in battle had little baring on if he was a thoughtful intelligent person.
Even if you keep all your ideals througout your life, you will realize in a very short time that you were indeed just a stupid kid when you were 18, and had no idea what you were talking about.
ok, lets assume i am 18 and have no idea what i am talking about. should i put myself on the front lines, endanger my life, or refuse? both answers are equally valid, depending on the situation.
u try to give an empirical proof that I am wrong: “In almost every country in the world… the age at which one was old enough to be suitable to fight had little baring if he was a thoughtfull intelligent person.” luckily in many countries there were people who were intelliegent enough NOT to die because they were told to. your point (the countries sent their children to die) does not strengthen or weaken the argument that refusal is legitimate thing to do when you are 18, as much as or even more than not refusing.
I told you, if youre refusing out of fear, I can understand that and I am in no position to question you. What is your primary reason?
Also, Good low ranked soldier= physically fit, and good at taking orders. I dont see what that has to do with making informing decisions regarding complex social and political issues.
Yes, i understand, being a soldier requires you to make some decisions, but face it, the military higher ups arent looking for philosophers and scientist fighting in the front line. They want fit individuals who are well disciplined.
exactly.
hey asaf, any sympathy for the families of the six dead israeli soldiers whose body parts are being held by your beloved palestinians. but you continue your advanced teenaged angst over israeli abuses of those same palestinians; the following is from haaretz: Six Israel Defense Forces soldiers from the Givati Brigade’s engineering company were killed in the Gaza Strip on Tuesday morning, when a bomb exploded under the armored personnel carrier (APC) in which they were travelling.
Hamas and Jihad said Tuesday that they had body parts of the six soldiers in their possession. A joint statement by Palestinian militant groups said that demands for their return would be issued.
“We possess the remains of your bodies that were thrown into the streets of Gaza. We have our demands to hand them over to the Zionist occupier,” said the statement. It did not list conditions.
it is very difficult to deal with pure evil. our western sensibilities create self doubt, raise questions of what did we do that helped cause the evil. but sometimes a cigar is a cigar, if the same behavior pattern of evil is repeated in country after country which adhere to the same belief system, from the sudan to syria to pakistan and throughout the entire muslim world, a fair conclusion is that muslim culture is somehow producing evil. im not saying the muslim religion is evil, i am saying that the muslim religion is creating evil human beings. i dont blame asaf from fleeing from that culture, as ive mentioned before, i also have not chosen to reside in israel. but when confronting evil, actions that we might otherwise not wish to undertake (eg blowing up homes of terrorists) sometimes become necessary. g-d protect israel and the entire jewish nation.
Asaf-
was that “exactly” directed at my post?
If it was, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are agreeing with me, and not just being some smart ass 18 trying to show me up- and in the process demonstrate how mature and thoughtful you really are.