it is to my understanding that the week will be equally focussed on accusing Israel of ethnic clensing.

When Palestine is a recogniized state, will it be integrated? Will any Jewish communities be welcome? What countries in the Middle East are vastly integrated? Do you think Jews will resettle Iraq? Are Jews permitted into Saudi Arabia even as tourists? Dunno, something tells me that you, and our Muslim friends at UT are holding Israel to the dreaded “higher standard.” Question is: are your motivations the same?

ok, here is what apartied was in south africa: blacks legally blocked from voting, living in white areas, using many public facilities + many other legal disabilities. in israel palestinians vote, indeed elect mk’s; there is no law preventing them from moving anywhere; they can use bathrooms, public facilities at will; in saudi arabia, jews are prohibited altogether; any muslim converting to another religion faces a death sentence; no one can vote at all. who has the apartied society?

and to me if a person is against a Jewish state well that means he’s on the side of Hamas.

Thank you, Mobius.

I think widespread fluency in Afrikaans is pretty much a sine qua non. And, of course, French-inspired vineyards.

I keep showering and showering, but I just can’t wash the self-loathing off my body. Calgon take me away!

Ya Habibi, our own ethnic cleansing and apartheid is but a drop in the bucket. Besides, the separate schools are at the request of the francophones and anglophones, who are therefore (obviously) self-hating. And that whole keep-our-French-hospital, budget-cuts-be-damned thing? Another Darfur. No joke.
No, if you want scandalous, look to our friendly neighbours to the south. Lebanon’s ethnic cleansing pales in comparison to, oh, Milwaukee’s. I mean, even after their “Supreme” Court ruled that ethnic cleansing was, you know, illegal. It’s just crazy.
Thing is, Mobius just doesn’t understand us. I mean, there’s the sensationalist headlines — Canadian Jewish Groups In Uproar Over “Apartheid Week”? But that’s not even the worst of it. He thinks we’re miffed ’cause we don’t really think Israel is, you know, an ethnic-cleansing apartheid state. Speaking in plain language, I mean.
But that’s so wrong! The problem is the double standard. I mean, out of all the apartheid states out there — Sweden, Djibouti, Brazil, and of course you ‘Murricans — why israel? It just ain’t fair.
but allow me to be clear: israel’s practice of ethnic cleansing is not extermination or genocide. Oh, of course you’re clear. That’s why you’re using clear language! Stuff like “ethnic cleansing” really gets the point across. And that’s exactly what you were trying to do. Nothing to do with recent threads, ‘course.
For fuck’s sake already. What was the British fella’s name, Blair? Orwell? Something like that.
The Palestinians are under Israeli military control, but they can’t vote. Hadn’t you heard? Municipal councils were the last few weeks. National election forthcoming.

ugh– I hate the appropriation of loaded terms like “apartheid.” It just makes no linguistic sense to use a term with such specific connotations and claim that, since there are some generalities in common, that it is an acceptable term for a completely different situation.
Call out Israel until you’re blue in the face, just stay away from comparing tragedies– it gets us nowhere.

Israel’s internal Arab situation is pretty bad, but yes, they can vote. The Palestinians are under Israeli military control, but they can’t vote. Israel builds settlements in this unannexed territory and builds bypass roads …. etc.
—————————————————–
This would be funny if it wasn’t used to fan such viscious hatred.
Yes, that’s right – Arabs who found themselves in Israeli territory after 1948 were given complete citizenship. Including the right to vote. There are 5-8 Arab MPs in every Israeli Knesset. Their educational system is separate – not because of apartheid, but because that’s how Israel handles minority demands for specialized education – there are 2 streams of Orthodox Jewish education, for example.
Any visitor to any Israeli hospital knows that Arabs have full access to the best health care in the entire region – in fact wealthy Jordanians come here for treatment. There is no apartheid in this area – it’s just a baldfaced lie.
The plaint voiced here that there is still latent anti-Semitism is typical of that sort of idealistic leftie whining that takes no consideration of human realities – for many Israelis the scars of war are still fresh, and instantaneous integration of the sort you may see in an American suburb is an unrealistic expectation.
– and the Palestinians? The Palestinians were purposely NOT given citizenship because the Israelis did NOT want to annex their land (kinda funny tactic for people that “everyone knows” are nasty Nazi colonialists… ) In 1967, shortly after the war, Israel announced its willingness to negotiate a peace agreement that would finally determine its eastern border – and Israeli policy towards the Arab residents of the West Bank was specifically intended to send the message that these people would be granted independence.
We had to wait 30 years for Oslo – during which time the Palestinians were given electricity, water, health care, and education budgets without paying a dime in taxes. And now Oslo has proved to be a false peace process, a Trojan horse used to destroy Israel.
To come after all this history and try to beat up on Israel for not giving West Bank residents citizenship – while simultaneously uphold Palestinian nationhood – is a non sequitir and totally unfair. Israel did not impose apartheid – its policy since 1967 amounted to AGREEMENT that the Palestinians should not live under Israeli domination. To turn this into a stick to hit Israel is dishonest.
It is typical of the confused thinking of the left, which unquestioningly swallows the conflicting, irrational claims of Arab propaganda – anything bad about Israel is instantly believed.
This tortured type of argument is not valid critique of Israel – it is anti-semitism. Coming from a Jew or Israeli, it is self-hatred.
Ben-David

I’m not particularly eloquent, but Israeli Arabs do have the choice of staying or leaving. Why do they stay? Why don’t they move to an Arab-majority country or perhaps move to a Palestinian area? I think it’s because they know that life is much better as an Israeli Arab than as an Arab in an Arab land. To me, this kind of disproves the “apartheid” claim.

“Bantustan refers to any of the territories designated as tribal “homelands” for black South Africans during the Apartheid era.”
Ahh. Now I get it. After the Europeans killed Jews with industrial efficiency during the holocaust, they stuck the survivors in a desert “banustan”. That is apartheid (dude).

Mobius, Thank you for showing the consequences of combining socialism and sectarian pluralism. When the state is socialist and the society is sectarian, the natural result is segregation (although Israeli “segregation” is so light compared to South Africa’s that naming it such is misleading). Israel is catering to diverse interests, and so its laws must treat people differently so long as it is socialist. Would it be better to force Arab and Charedi kids into more mainstream schools? Not if you want to allow them to preserve their sectarian values.
The way to solve this is not through “desegregation,” but reather through economic liberalization. If schools and other services were private, and if Charedi and other groups did not receive tremendous subsidies, this segregation would disappear. People still might organize around similar poulations, but it would lack the color of state coercion. Thus, the problem is socialism, not “segregation.” Israel is not one of the freest countries, and that will be true so long as it embraces socialism. Today, the threat to freedom is “segregation.” If that ends, the threat will be “forced assimilation.” Those are the only alternatives with socialism.

the problem with responding to mobius or any chomsy like enemy of jews is their distortions, misquotes, selective use of facts, and outright lies. to take just a few moments: mobius claims the borak peace plan established a series of disconnected “bantus”. yes, that statement was made by the palestinians murderers; but dennis ross and bill clinton both said the plan was for one contiquous palestinian state. so mobius presumably believes palestinian murderers, and disbelieves the president and his top negotiator. thats fine, if one so identifies with palestinians murderers he finds them more credible than his own leaders, that should be the disclaimer at the start of the post: THIS POST REFLECTS THE POSITION OF PALESTINIAN MURDERERS. Next, the post believes that israels use of foreign workers as opposed to allowing palestinians from the west bank to work in israel is evidence of bias – last i heard no one from thailand was trying to murder little jewish babies; so yes, utilizing thai workers displays a bias against allowing murderers into your country. so whats the point of mobys argument – that he so hates the jews of israel that he wants them murdered? that hes so in love with the palestinians that hes willing to increase the murder rate of jews so that palestinians can earn a better living. i truly truly dont get it, i dont get mobius, i dont get anyone who agrees with him, i dont get anyone who draws the moral balance the way he does – does he really believe what he says here? why why why???????

Mob posted a few times that his posts don’t always represent his personal opinion and that he often reports different things in order to generate discussion.
So I really don’t believe that an intelligent, liberal, critical thinker especially after being in Israel for several months, still thinks that Israel is an apartheid state.
By coincidence or not, I ate with South African ‘coloured’ (their term) non-Jewish people last night, and we talked about the whole apartheid issue. First time, I’ve been able to talk with people who actually felt the discrimination. So call Israel an apartheid state is a serious insult to what they went through.
Daniel,
could you add to your apartheid ‘proofs’ that Arabs can apply to the college in Ariel, and that a few dozen actually learn there. Must be some quota system of the ethnic cleansing settlers…

Zionista wrote: “Too often these “apartheid” debates lead to the conclusion that one Jewish state is too many while 21 Arab states are not enough.”
That’s funny.. because I’ve noticed that the same people who whine about how the Arabs have 21 states (or whatever the actual number is) also oppose Arab Nationalism
It wasn’t always broken up into 21 easier to manage states you know, it was once unified and it was forcefully broken up by the west
If you don’t like the 21 separate countries with 21 United Nations votes then support Arab Nationalism so there would be one giant Arabian nation with only 1 vote.
———-
josh wrote: “So call Israel an apartheid state is a serious insult to what they went through. ”
Really? Seems Desmond Tutu doesn’t agree –
Apartheid in the Holy Land by Desmond Tutu

And it seems we all disagree with Desmond Tutu. Duh. Hey, weren’t you the fella linking to logical fallacies just a few threads ago?

Jeres a taster from a discussion of this very topic by South Africans, who have some knowledge about the subject:
We note how the Israeli state rests on overt repression, a system of structural violence and institutionalised discrimination that dehumanises one group to the advantage of another. Apartheid Israel has developed an elaborate system of racial discrimination, embedded in its legal system-even surpassing Apartheid South Africa’s laws. These laws include the Law of Entry, the Law of Return, Citizenship Law, legally sanctioned discriminatory rabbinical rulings and the Military Service Law. Palestinians are denied various welfare benefits, access to many jobs, and the leasing of homes and land controlled by government bodies. We realise that while Palestinians within the ’48 borders may vote, they face these discriminatory laws and are treated like third class citizens. Electricity, sewerage, roads and water supplies are provided free to Israeli households whereas many Palestinian communities in Israel, let alone the occupied territories, have existed for decades without adequate services. The Israeli education system is racist in practice and in content. Almost no Arab history is covered and there are no Arab textbooks in the Israeli curricula. Palestinians also face significant barriers in gaining access to universities. In South Africa similar factors contributed to the Uprisings in 1976 and the 1980s.

John Brown: “That’s funny.. because I’ve noticed that the same people who whine about how the Arabs have 21 states (or whatever the actual number is) also oppose Arab Nationalism”
There are 21 member nations of the Arab League (plus the Palestinian Authority). Only three recognize Israel. How many Arab states go unrecognized by Israel?

Oops, sorry about the double post – computer glitch.
Heres another South African examining the similarities between the 2 systems:
My first contention is that Israel is, internally, a state that is based on a system of exclusivity akin to apartheid in South Africa and hence allows it to be regarded as an apartheid state. I understand Apartheid as a system of privileging and advantaging one group of people over others on the basis of race or ethnicity. In the South African context privilege and advantage flowed from one’s being white; in the Israeli context they are based on one’s being Jewish. I will look at two issues within the Israeli context to argue this case, and briefly sketch similarities in the South African context of the past: the questions of 1) citizenship and 2) land and land ownership.
Personally I find the argument that whilst Israeli Arabs ARE discriminated against, they have a better life than other Arabs in the region to be a no-brainer.
Many black South Africans under Aparteid were better off than people in other parts of Africa. That in no way meant that it was okay for them to be the subject of legally entrenched discrimination.

Ohhhh … this has gotten long, tedious, and stupid. Mobius: Is it so absurd or contentious to make the claim that Israel is an apartheid state? No more absurb or contentious than making the claim that Greece and Iceland are apartheid states. But who has the time?

do you want a jewish state or a democracy?
eventually you will have to decide

Since my background is counseling and marketing, I can only wonder:
a) Is Mobius embarassed about HT’s posts and is trying to counter with equally absurd posts
b) Is Mobius trying to promote Jewlicious (cuz Lord knows, Jewschool looks a little like ISM today, and if this continues, I won’t be back)
c) Is Mobius trying to court John Brown into some wierd sex act by playing to his politics?
Hmmmm. Tell me about your dreams.

there is a demographic issue soon to exlode. the Arabs are outnumbering the Jews because the secular Jews aren’t having children, they’re taking away the money from the only Jews that are (the charedim) and none of the hotshot Americans who preach from their cushy homes on the other side of the Atlantic are moving here either.
What happens then?

HT, Exactly how are secular Jews taking money away from the Charedim? My understanding is that all Jews are taked to support the Charedi welfare system. If welfare benefits are being reduced, that is allowing people to keep their money, not taking money away from the welfare recipient.
Also, the Demographic issue is only a real problem if Israel annexes Gaza and the West Bank as you have proposed. Without such annexation, the population balance is not going to tilt any time soon.
If you want Americans to make Aliyah, you should promote peace instead of warmongering. Peace will bring Americans to Israel.

I find it terribly unfortunate that good Jewish families will need to relocate from the settlements. It is a terrible hardship and they deserve special monetary consideration and government support as a result. However, their relocation is necessary to peace. Is it sad, yes, but it is necessary for Jewish security and peace.

having never lived in south africa, i don’t think i can make any sort of visceral judgement. I certainly don’t think that Israel is an “apartheid state” By virtue of the fact that Arabs and Jews stay apart on the ground is more a result of the larger ethnic conflict, not the political posturing of either the palestinian or jewish governments. I don’t buy it.

Just stumbled upon a quote that I believe is apropos for this posting:
“Someone who does not know the difference between good and evil is worth nothing.” — Miecyslaw Kasprzyk, Polish rescuer of Jews during the Holocaust, New York Times, Jan. 30, 2005

MOBIUS, As the map shows, there are not 5 discountinuous land masses, but 2 major and one extremely small (which clearly should be connected to the Northern section) sections planned for the Palestinian state in the WB. The bantustan arguement comes from a belief that Israel would never cede control over the areas of the Jordan valley, which-in the context of security guarantees/progress and international pressure and guarantees, i highly doubt they would hold onto for more than 10 years (10 years is a reasonable amount of time for the Palestinians to establish a security force and show some progress). personally, i think it would be problematic to have even the 2 large land masses without continuity-though I wouldn’t call that apartheid-and i think you have the same problem with a palestinian state in WB and gaza…whats the solution there for continuity (a land corridor controlled by intl forces?). what bothers me more about the map is the presence of so many jewish settlements within the planned Palestinian state, how and why the hell do we plan to keep those as part of sovreign israel?

“No, Arab Nationalism and Pan-Arabism were always secular philosophies and were opposed by Islamist people as “infidel” ideologies”
That’s Baathist talk, Brown.

Is anyone upset about ‘sand-niggers’ because it is disgusting, or just because we want to be able to use our own awful epithets, also?
HT: I just wonder if thats why I sent all my quarters to Israel for trees; so we could get some good old fashioned lynching goin’ on when the A-rabs get all uppity.
Racism is racism is racism.

avi don’t try to push her attitudes off on the left.. she’s one of yours, and you have nobody to blame but yourself

I don’t have much to add to Mobius’s post, other than a hearty “Yasher Koach”. I know that there are lots of places the analogy breaks down, but on the whole, I think its a good comparison. If it helps people wake up to the realities of occupation, that would be a good thing.

If it helps people wake up to the realities of occupation, that would be a good thing.
Grin — this is the usual justification for propaganda. As it happens, the more likely effect of this kind of lying is to alienate people from wanting anything to do with those who claim a monopoly on the realities of occupation. Hell, it’s working for me.

ht- please cut the bullshit sweetheart, this isn’t the SOD message board.

I can’t believe I read the expression “sand n*****s” here. HT, that’s disgraceful. Don’t call us self-hating Jews for calling you out on that – just be reasonable and apologize. Or are you going to start talking about “bush n*****s” next? What’s wrong with you? Come on now. ‘çéìåì ä

Ethnically and genetically speaking, Israeli Jews are sand niggers too. If Holy Terror has contempt for her Sand Nigger neighbors, who are also her brothers and sisters, she should move back to Nashville, the world’s largest bantustan of self-hating sand niggers.

and by the way mobi, thanks for the courageous post.

This site does not have an edit button. I was typing rather fast. I hope that it is understood that Arab Nationalism and the Baathist party was influenced by Nazism from the very beginning. This led to attacks and massacres of Iraqi Jews in the 1940s. Iraqi Jews and their descendent now mostly live in Israel.

Tutu reference
http://www.zoa.org/pressrel2000/20000512a.htm

This is just so ridiculous I don’t know how to respond. Comparing Israel to South Africa is not only shamefully offensive, but seriously erroneous.

This led to attacks and massacres of Iraqi Jews in the 1940s.
Indeed. With all of the voices springing enthusiastically about the wrong-but-oh-so-daring “apartheid” smear — preposterously, Jordan calls it “courageous” (above) — one wonders whether propaganda and hate speech are becoming the standard ’round here.
I mean, can’t you just see it at University of Toronto. This week, the Arab Students Association organises Israeli Apartheid Week! Next week, Hillel organises Arab Judenraus Week! And the band plays on…

avi wrote: “Tutu has charged that
Zionism has “very many parallels with racism””
Seems like ZOA has no clue as to the difference between anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism, (or is being deliberately disengenuous) which is not surprising.
The level of desperation that leads you to claim that Brandeis must be full of anti-semitic Jews is laughable.

Hang on a second! I never said that Tutu was anti-semitic, that was susan – I did however provide a source , because I had one to hand.
If you google “Jewish monopoly” Tutu you’ll find that the sources are questionable to say the least.
Try “arrogance of power” Tutu and the sources seem to be the same
It is worth remembering that a number of South African Jews were strongly allied to the struggle for liberation in Apartheid South Africa, and I would be incredibly surprised if Tutu harboured anti-Jewish sentiment.

there are close to 6 million jews in israel; almost by definition, if you are for the destruction of israel as a jewish state (e.g. you believe in a “one state” solution), or if you want to harm israel by calling for divesture, or if you damage israel in the eyes of the world by calling her a nazi state or an apratheid state or an outlaw state, you are severely harming or aiding and abetting the killing of 6 million jews (interesting number)- that makes you an anti semite whatever your racial/religious/ethnic background. all the philosophizing, academic platitudes, intellectual posturing, rebellious stances wont change that basic fact. if you dont like an israeli position, argue against that position, if you call israel a nazi state, you are harming 6 million jews, and if that isnt defined as being an antisemite, then what is?

But I do strongly believe in critiquing Israeli policy towards the Palestinians & discrimination against Arab Israelis.
Oh, we all do. But the apartheid discussion is about actively silencing that critique. It’s working.

Janine J, I actually said that Desmond Tutu has a long history of anti-Semitic comments. I don’t know if he his an anti-Semite or not. It is possible that he is merely misinformed.
I originally read Tutu’s comments in general readership newspapers such as the NY Times, Philadelphia Inquirer, and The Guardian. Some of these comments were made over a decade ago and therefore are not easily found on the internet. One would have to pay to receive access to archives.
It seems that many people have chosen to ignore the anti-Semitic content of Tutu’s comments. Zionist web sites are the only ones interested in keeping track of Tutu’s comments.
I think it is fair to say that criticism of Israel crosses the line into anti-Semitism when anti-Semitic stereotypes are used. It is equally unacceptable if one is referring to American Jews, Israelis, or Zionists, or all Jews.
I would like to point out that it is possible to be on the left and still disagree with Mobius. There are varied positions on the left.
Mobius, a recent poll of Palestinians and Israelis showed that both supported adopting Clinton’s final plan, the Taba agreement. I can’t be that bad for the Palestinians if a majority of them support it.

It can be strongly argued that by denying the legitimacy of making the comparison, that the discussion is being shut down. Yeah. That’d argument’d be wrong. But feel free to make it.
Especially if it is the victims of Apartheid who are making that comparison. They probably have some expertise on the matter. No — this is called “politics”, honey. Incidentally, which victims of apartheid called Israel and apartheid regime? I can’t find any record…
Tutu said that, compared to the occupation, “Apartheid was a picnic.” It isn’t something he would say lightly. Heck, it’s hard to tell if it’s even something he would say, let alone know what he meant?
According to Avi its okay to make comparisons to the Holocaust but not to Apartheid. For this morning’s “duh” moment: neither is particularly useful. Stunning, I know.
I responded to a request for a source. Sorry. Not interested, and don’t much see the relevance of Tutu’s piercing analyses of the Arab-Israeli wars, Israeli-Palestinian relations, American Jewish politics, the Daf Yomi or, really, anything else he may or may not have lectured the world abiout.
You obviously care deeply. Good on you! Then, by all means, Google away.

It is very sad that the so called left or Jewish left for that matter has started to resort to cliches and ad hominem attacks. Any criticism of their disproportiante criticism of Israel is met with “you people always equate anti-semitism with anti-zionism”. The fact of the matter is the only reason Amira Hass, Adam Shapiro are glorified by the PA is because they have bought the Palestinian nationalism propaganda hook line and sinker. I know its tempting to force an analogy on the situation by citing South Africa as an example. This cannot be FURTHER from the truth. The establishment of Israel is a corrective measure (just like to a certain extent affirmative action) that enables descendants of Ashkenazic (who died in the Holocaust just a couple of generations ago) and other Jews can live without ( or with less) fear. Israel, despite its problems, is a model example of a socially progressive civil society. In Israel, unlike NYC, everyone has health insurance and if someone gets hit by a car people would go help. The people who are trying to delegitimize Israel with elaborate deceptions and false analogies are not going to succeed.