And then I realized, every day is weird christian mutation day
i saw Danya’s post below. Then, I was looking at the LA Times for something. And found this:
Cue up the GodMen house band, which opens the revival with a thrashing challenge to good boys:
*
Forget the yin and the yang
I’ll take the boom and the bang….
Don’t need in touch with my feminine side!
All I want is my testosterone high.
*
The 200 men in the crowd clap stiffly. Stine races through a frenetic stand-up routine, drawing laughs with his rants against liberals, atheists and the politically correct. Then Christian radio host Paul Coughlin, author of “No More Christian Nice Guy,” takes the stage. His backdrop: a series of wanted posters featuring one Jesus of Nazareth.
Yeah. So the problem with Christianity is that there’s not enough cursing, explosions, rock tunes and “manliness”
“Jesus was a very bad Christian,” Coughlin declares. After all, he says, the Son of God trashed a temple and even used profanity — or the New Testament equivalent — when he called Herod “that fox.”
“The idea of Jesus as meek and mild is as fictitious as anything in Dan Brown’s ‘Da Vinci Code,’ ” says Coughlin, 40.
So what’s with the standard portraits of Jesus: pale face, beatific smile, lapful of lambs?
“He’s been domesticated,” says Roland Martinson, a professor of ministry at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minn. “He’s portrayed now as gentle, loving, kind, rather than as a full-bodied person who kicked over tables in the temple, spent 40 days in the wilderness wrestling with his identity and with God, hung out with the guys in the street. The rough-hewn edges and courage … got lopped off.”
Well, I would certainly agree that the courage has been lopped off. But that courage is the courage that speaks about social justice, about making the world right, about taking care of the least of people, about rich people having as small a chance of getting into heaven as… well, you get it.
There are too many lines are that are so ridiculous they’re beyond funny, but I’ll leave you with this one.
SUCH in-your-face aggression at first troubles Howard Stephenson, who paid $68 for a day at GodMen in hopes of forging friendships with other Christian men. When Stine, a born-again Christian, shouts that it’s OK to cuss — and then demonstrates with a defiant “bull….” — Stephenson shifts uneasily.
“This is so extreme for me,” he says.
A few weeks later, Stephenson, 43, is still not sold on profanity. But he has ditched the nice-guy reflex of always turning the other cheek. When he spots a Wal-Mart clerk writing “Happy Holidays” on a window, he boldly complains: It should say “Merry Christmas.”
The clerk erases the offending greeting. Chalk one up for Christian testosterone.
“I wouldn’t have done that before,” Stephenson says proudly. “I am no longer a doormat.”
Because clearly, Christians are doormats, right? They’re not the dominant religion in this country, right?
Wow. Oh, and special knowledge to those red sox fans out there, the phrase “Cowboy Up” is used by the GodMan band.
There gonna need that testosterone when the islamic apocalypse arrives. So be happy for them.
Well, they’ve been running around telling themselves they’re being persecuted an awful lot. Despite having supreme court justices, despite holding the presidency, despite the fact that they’ve taken over several states and broadcast their message 24/7 on tv and radio. yeh- they’ve got it tough.
“Because clearly, Christians are doormats, right? They’re not the dominant religion in this country, right?”
If you consider only serious Christians (as opposed to nominal Christians), then no, they’re not the dominant religion in this country.
I wouldn’t say that serious Christians are persecuted; far from it. But look at it from a serious Christian’s view. Most sectors of pop culture are constantly mocking them and their values. The academy and other sectors of high culture (if we can still call it that) are even nastier. In terms of influence, these are powerful institutions, and it’s not easy to avoid them. So I understand why they feel embattled even with their relative affluence and significant political power.
…So I understand why they [the serious Christians] feel embattled…
Also, Coughlin makes some interesting points about Jesus.
There’s an excellent reason why it’s called “The Paranoid Style in Amercian Politics.” Groundless claims of persecution are an essential component of who these people are and how they operate.
So let me get this straight – we can take something like 80 million people and say that? Let’s try a thought experiment:
“Groundless claims of persecution by black people are an essential component of who these people are and how they operate.”
“Groundless claims of persecution by Arabs are an essential component of who these people are and how they operate.”
“Groundless claims of persecution by women are an essential component of who these people are and how they operate. ”
It’s this widespread double standard that helps cause these feelings among Christians, not some conspiratorial tactic.
J,
So Christians feel embittered because their majority status doesn’t prevent them from getting criticized from within their own community and outside of it: boo fucking hoo.
Also J, where are you getting the figure of 80 million? Is that the number of Xtians in the States? I don’t think so. Not from the figures I found on the CIA world factbook website. As of 2002, 52% identified as Prostentant, 24% as Catholic, and 2% Mormon. Even with your distinction between “serious” Xtians and nominal ones, that is a way more than 80 million people who believe in the Christian doctrine.
Yeah, they’re endangered, all right.
Like the beleaguered, and quasi-extinct, white male.
We take it for granted that only ‘actual’ oppressed minorities have the right to experience feelings of marginalization. Throughout history, majorities have been oppresses and marginalized as well.
The subjective experience of being seen as ‘not counting’ or ‘irrelevant’ can fuel strong feelings of resentment. Folks who aren’t white men, or who aren’t sincere Christians, have done a good job of constructing an environment that sustains those feelings. To counter those legitimate feelings with sarcastic derision sort of proves the whole point.
I wish my pals on the left had the ability to recognize that behind the intolerant facade is a search for meaning and right behavior in this world, in the face of serious obstacles. I’m all the way with Lerner in seeking dialogue over how best to advance ‘the kingdom’ on earth as it is in heaven. Jews and progressives need not be oppositional; we can be collaborative as well. Both are needed.
“Groundless claims of persecution by Jews are an essential component of who these people are and how they operate. â€
(see J’s comment above)
mikey d.-
Maybe you read my comment (#3 above) too quickly. What we often see in the media and pop culture (and on Jewschool) goes far beyond criticism. I didn’t say I was crying for them, but they have a point.
As to the 80 million, that was a very rough estimate based on the number of Evangelicals (for which there are stats) plus other serious Protestants and Catholics (no real stats because of the complicated definition of “serious”). If I did more research, I’d probably revise that number. Also note that I wouldn’t say that belief in Christian doctrine is enough to make someone a serious Christian. If it was, we’d probably have to include the likes of Britney Spears.
My head is spinning from being in agreement with Jew Guevara. JG, would you mind not putting the word “Jew” next to the name of a bloodthirsty mass murderer?
J,
Your point is fair enough, but is a misinterpretation of mine, which, admittedly, is the result of my own imprecision. In attributing groundless claims of persecution to “these people,” I wasn’t referring to either Christians or even Evangelicals. I was, on the other hand, referring to those specific Christians who spend their time fomenting communal hatred of “liberals, atheists, and the politically correct.” There’s another word for that, i.e., bigotry, and thank God there aren’t 80 million Christians in the United States who subscribe to that shit. Those views have nothing whatever to do with Christianity – even if it’s a particular sect of Christians that cultivates them – and I’m sick and tired of groups reflexively attacking liberals or atheists or the secular or whomever, and expecting such views to be an acceptable component of “who they are.” It isn’t; and they should expect to earn every ounce of the contempt, derision, and paranoia they elicit.
JG,
I’d agree that the right to experience of feelings of marginalization is by no means limited to oppressed minorities; frankly, anyone is entitled to feel . . . .well, whatever it is they feel. On the other hand, the right to assert valid claims of actually being marginalized is, indeed, limited to those who have been oppressed in some manner. And, yes, behind the “intolerant facade” there may well be some deeper search for meaning or validation, and the like. I also agree that we in the liberal Jewish community can act in a collaborative manner. But I think we damn well do need to be “oppositional,” and virulently so, when, as indicated, such groups think that taking potshots at our community and beliefs is standard operating procedure.
david-
Well, OK. But as for
“I was, on the other hand, referring to those specific Christians who spend their time fomenting communal hatred of “liberals, atheists, and the politically correct.â€
– I don’t think they’re any worse, on average, than the people they oppose. There’s some genuine, high-level argumentation; some passable lower-level argumentation; mockery and rhetoric; tasteless and unfair attacks; outright smears and, yes, sometimes there is “fomenting communal hatred”. But liberals and the politically correct do the same (and recently it looks like the atheists are joining in); Leftists, I think, are, on average, even worse.
“But I think we damn well do need to be “oppositional,†and virulently so, when, as indicated, such groups think that taking potshots at our community and beliefs is standard operating procedure. ”
I feel the same way. And in my case (conservative politics, largely traditionalist, proud Jew and pro-American), those taking potshots at my community and beliefs are today more often the Left than the Christians (though I’m not shy about opposing Christians when necessary – did you hear about the mainline churches divesting from Israel?)
Throughout history, majorities have been oppresses and marginalized as well.
This conversation is unreal!
Everyone is made fun of and scrutinized. Beliefs are belittled everyday. We are having a conversation here about a very select group of Christians who were featured in the “liberal media” rag of the LA Times. Who is making a point of feeling persecuted now?
Arabs and Muslims and black and gays and Jews and Christians and Catholics and Hindus and everyone is persecuted at one point or another. Miriam points this out very clearly, that while a select reading of history will yield the persecution of every ethnic or religious group, the facts are clear, conservative Christianity is in no danger of extinction.
“Arabs and Muslims and black and gays and Jews and Christians and Catholics and Hindus and everyone is persecuted at one point or another.”
Let’s not confuse “is” with “ought”.
“conservative Christianity is in no danger of extinction”
True, but people can justly get upset about lesser threats than extinction.
did you hear about the mainline churches divesting from Israel?
Old news J have you heard Presbies and the Jews made nice last week?
Keep up with news that you use to damn large groups. Presbies and Jews Sitting in a Tree
Personal experience here…
I remember being in the room with the student leaders of a certain struggle on campus. The students had gone on strike, and the leaders were discussing strategy for the next day. In the room were 7 people, including two white men. The others were foreign grad students and US racial minorities. It was agreed that: all efforts by Jews and gays to assume leadership would be repelled, because they have no business pretending to be oppressed as well, and thereby seeking leadership in a popular struggle.
This was nearly 15 years ago. But I’ll never forget that moment. It was a window to a shade of deep cynicism inside what looked from the outside to be ‘progressive.’
What does it mean for white, Christian America to have witnessed that cynicism, that mockery, that arrogance and Machiavellian power politics? It means that they quite willingly go to war with an enemy that seeks to exclude them.
When ‘progressive’ become so tribal and race/identity based that Jews are exluded (and gays) by name, kal vahomer that ‘regular’ folks, like the majority on my campus that was white and christian, will take on some defensive attitudes. In my student union, white male straight Christians were marginalized, repeatedly, with pride and vigor. I look back with a certain amount of shame; I wanted to be one of the marginalizers, until I found out that my ‘comrades’ saw me as the enemy as well.
In this country, no matter how powerful you are, someone, somewhere, still can oppress you in specific circumstances.
This article was fascinating and especially in light of two others articles in the same issue. What caught my eye was the focus on how Dubya’s Daddy issue totally framed the whole way the Iraq study group’s whole mission was presented. “‘Here, son, let us give you a road map for your foreign policy,’ that’s remarkable.”
And then there was an amusing essay by a “dating columnist” about the post-traumatic stress women feel when dating good guys after dating all the messed up (confused Christians?) men.
There actually is a connection that I elaborate in my post: a crisis in identity that men r feeling acutely. Duh!
It doesn’t really matter (to me) how much of their perceived “victimization” is real or imaginary – they LOVE to play the victim card. I think they also love the drama, the reduction of the complexities and ambiguities of contemporary life (which they can’t handle) to a cosmic struggle between good and evil. Watch the performance of any televangelist; it’s pure theater.
Demonizing the Left and portraying themselves as victims helps to reinforce their group mentality and allows them to feel part of a collective greater than themselves. Many of you are in college or have graduated recently; you’ve taken some psych courses and can explain it more thoroughly and articulately – but you recognize the phenomenon. It’s mammalian politics.
Last spring, they held a conference, The War on Christians and Values Voters, and most of their spokespeople were there. I hear they’re gearing up to have one this coming year as well. They have to keep the myth alive; it’s vitally important to their sense of collective identity.
I really don’t care that some white conservative Christian guy got his feelings hurt by those bullies over on the Left – as mikey d. said above, “boo fucking hooâ€. They can console themselves with their lurid fantasies about what God will do to us in the afterlife.
And, for the record, and for those of you who haven’t heard of him – Brad Stine, the conservative Christian comedian (God help us) who is mentioned in the article, is an incendiary asshole who likes to throw a lit match into a room of powder kegs and walk away. He’s a good example of the type of split personality exhibited by many of them –when he’s on NPR, he comes across as a reasonable, likable guy who just happens to veer toward the Right. When he’s among them, it’s a different tune –Liberals are no damn good, we’re destroying America and we’re all going to hell. Can’t stand him.
I’m a Reformist Chrisitan. I like some of the Christians, because they’re geniune and nice. Then again there are others I dont like, because they’re mean ignorant assholes. The Christians in this post are amongst the assholes.
That’s not what I fiocus on though. I see repeatedly, Xtians and Jews making blanket statements about each other. I don’t take it seriously, and there’s usually an example of it somewhere on this site. I also know of Progressive Christian sites, in the same vein as Jewschool to Judaism, that are guilty of the same thing in reverse.
Individuals can recognize that Christianity is as individual as Judaism. Just like cops, some of them are actually cool, and not neo-fascist pigs. Then again some cops are neo-fascist pigs. The same thing everywhere; blanket statements perpetuating miscommunication and disinformation. An age old tale told over and over.
Unfortunately, it’s all I see anymore in both of these ‘worlds’, sullying the profound positivity that can emanate from them. I tend to shy away and concentrate on acting in accordance as a man, instead of throwing myself into the fray of a thread that I believe is a waste of my time, even though I might otherwise feel the urge.
I’m soured me on religion, yet feel very spiritual. I’ve pretty much ex-communicated myself, because I get more done that way. Even now, I feel like my comment here falls on deaf ears.
I’m not suggesting everyone at Jewschool does this, that’s not true, but I think most Jews see Christians, across the board, as one coagulating mass, just as Xtians see Jews in the same light.