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Bill O'Reilly: Inadvertant Zionist

Conservative talk show host and falafel fetishist Bill O’Reilly is in hot water after making remarks to a caller who expressed his discomfort, as a Jewish person, with the prevalance of Christmas in public schools, that he should move to Israel.
Responding to a complaint by ADL director Abe Foxman regarding his remarks, O’Reilly called the ADL “an extremist group that finds offense in pretty much everything” and deemed Foxman, upon whose authority he’s relied previously, a “nut”.
The JCPA and NY Democrat Nita Lowey have since gotten in on the action, demanding an apology from O’Reilly.
Um, here’s a good question: What precisely did O’Reilly say that Jewish people haven’t said to one another countless times before? Is it so wrong to say to someone, “If you’re uncomfortable being the minority religious group, you should move to where you’re the majority”? Isn’t that a traditional Jewish case for moving to Israel? And, er, isn’t Abe Foxman a nut? Haven’t we all agreed on this by now?
Don’t get me wrong — I think O’Reilly’s a cock. But in this particular case, I don’t know if he’s necessarily wrong.

50 thoughts on “Bill O'Reilly: Inadvertant Zionist

  1. So, when you want your child in the US to be treated like all other children, but all the other children are having a prayer circle around holiday time, you should change countries, right?
    Or, for example, when Easter comes around and your child is encouraged to hunt for eggs because it’s a fun holiday activity that is great for all kids, and if you don’t want this, you should change countries, right?
    There are a few Jews, however, who pay taxes just like the non-Jews, and who participate in this society to the same extent and at times even more than non-Jews, who would like their children to be treated as equals and not have to participate in non-Jewish religious activities.
    And they don’t want to move to Israel. They don’t consider it their country, they consider the US their country. Should they be compelled to live a social contract that isn’t part of their country because a majority of people want this?
    Those Jews are American born, American raised, American taught. They are citizens who pay taxes and who are law-abiding. Why should they find that in certain public spheres, they are treated like a minority?
    Finally, why did he suggest Israel? Because the person was Jewish? Fair enough. So if it had been an American Muslim, he would have said, “Go back to Iraq/Syria/Saudi” and if it had been an American Buddhist, he would have said, “Go back to Tibet.”
    In other words, if you’re not a Christian, even if you were born here and support this nation as all Americans, you do not belong here and should go elsewhere if you aren’t willing to participate in our religious activities. What happens when they remove the word Christian and replace it with “supporter of Bush” or “supporter of capitalism?” Do we all have to agree with the majority or move to whatever they consider our country of origin?
    I thought democracies were about giving choice to the majority but giving voice and equal treatment to the minority.

  2. Taking it out of the Christmas tree context for a moment: I have to admit that I really have no major problem with Christmas trees in the U.S. (or Montreal), because I have no illusion that the U.S. isn’t a Christian-dominated country. What I did have a problem with, during the three years I spent in the U.S., was the weird holiday called Christmas-Hanukka. The building I worked in had a menorah as a kind of adjunct to its Christmas tree. This, although the Christmas tree only went up after Hanukka was over (it was early that year). Seemed just bizarre. Anyways:
    Is it so wrong to say to someone, “If you’re uncomfortable being the minority religious group, you should move to where you’re the majority”? Isn’t that a traditional Jewish case for moving to Israel?
    I don’t think so. I think the relevant bit of the traditional Zionist case for moving to Israel — well, the good version — is that, damn it, no matter how much we try, we can never be sure that minority rights will be respected here, so we’d better move to Israel.
    Emphasis on “try”, though, as in that’s the important political platform for Jews in the diaspora. Discrimination in the diaspora isn’t sound justification for Israel; more importantly, Israel is certainly not a good excuse for discrimination in the diaspora.
    Nor for discrimination in Israel, for that matter. As Jews we should have a model in our heads of minority rights as being an important part of how states work and what states do; insofar as Israel is kind of our showcase, it’s doubly important there.

  3. It is me or isn’t there a difference between a member of a minority saying to another member out of concern that they would be better off in a country where they are the majority vs. a member of the majority saying this to the member of the minority?

  4. So, when you want your child in the US to be treated like all other children, but all the other children are having a prayer circle around holiday time, you should change countries, right?
    Or, for example, when Easter comes around and your child is encouraged to hunt for eggs because it’s a fun holiday activity that is great for all kids, and if you don’t want this, you should change countries, right?

    no, you should just accept that jews account for less than 1% of the american population and you shouldn’t expect to be well accomodated by the public education system. if you want your kids to fit in, send ’em to a jewish day school. otherwise, move to israel, where they will be accomodated by the public education system.
    Should they be compelled to live a social contract that isn’t part of their country because a majority of people want this?
    what choice do you have? does a minority that accounts for less than 1% of the population have the right to demand the other 99% stop making their religious culture a part of their normative existence because it offends them? and what effect do you think that might have, if ‘the jews’ demand christmas be taken out of public schools? do you think it’s ‘good for us’ to be seen as the grinches who stole christmas? why, in that case, you better be prepared to move to israel, because your welcome might soon be outstayed.
    It is me or isn’t there a difference between a member of a minority saying to another member out of concern that they would be better off in a country where they are the majority vs. a member of the majority saying this to the member of the minority?
    it all depends on context. your question raises my curiosity about your feelings towards christian zionists.

  5. Mobius, I usually don’t agree with your opinions but you are spot on with this one. The US is a Christian country by virtue of the vast majority of christians who live here. So what? I agree with O’Reilly, if a Jew or anyone else feels so uncomfortable with that, they should go to a place where they are not a minority. The minorities should have a right to worship and be free in this country, but not to demand the majority not hurt their feelings.

  6. The minorities should have a right to worship and be free in this country, but not to demand the majority not hurt their feelings.
    It is not as simple as saying do not hurt my feelings. It is about common sense and understanding that majority opinion is not indicative of positions that are legally, ethically or morally just.
    There are countless examples of tyranny by the majority. Torquemada and his goons thought that they were justified in their actions.
    Plenty of Germans and Turks thought that they were justified in their actions.
    A majority of the world thought that the Earth was flat and that the sun rotated around the Earth.
    We could discuss the Salem Witch trials too.
    This is not about asking Christians to eliminate all of their symbols, it is about making sure that we do not allow the wack jobs to redefine the Constitution. We do not allow them the ability to use the majority to bully others into accepting a less than equal position and that is exactly what is going on here.
    Substitute the word Jew with Black/Asian/Mexican whatever and see how that sounds.
    You are really missing the boat.

  7. having secret santas and easter egg hunts in elementary school is incomporable to forcing a person to convert by the sword or killing/persecuting a person for their religious beliefs.

  8. Mobius, I usually don’t agree with your opinions but you are spot on with this one. The US is a Christian country by virtue of the vast majority of christians who live here. So what? I agree with O’Reilly, if a Jew or anyone else feels so uncomfortable with that, they should go to a place where they are not a minority. The minorities should have a right to worship and be free in this country, but not to demand the majority not hurt their feelings.

  9. having secret santas and easter egg hunts in elementary school is incomporable to forcing a person to convert by the sword or killing/persecuting a person for their religious beliefs.
    You are still missing the boat on this. It is not just elementary school influence. This is a problem that extends throughout all of school, elementary to university life.
    Within public institutions it often blurs a line that should be distinct, the first amendment is not something to be played with.
    Not to mention that when public funds are used you are discussing my tax dollars and certainly as a citizen and taxpayer I and others are granted the right to be concerned over how our taxes are being used.
    Beyond that I noticed that you ignored the issues I raised about the fallacies of claiming right by majority.
    http://wwwjackbenimble.blogspot.com/2004/12/oreilly-still-spinning-lies.html
    Anyway, I don’t know if you have children, but if you did you might view this differently.

  10. You are really missing the boat.
    No Jack, actually your post highlights exactly what I am talking about. Too many Jews (or Black/Asian/Mexican if you prefer) have an attitude that they have a right not to be offended. This is different than your argument which appears to be of the slippery slope argument – any public expression of the majority religion automatically results in the oppression of the religious minorities. The whole point of the O’Reilly statement was that if a non-Christian is offended by the public celebration of Christian holidays, he/she should go to a country where there own religion is the majority. I agree 100% with that. Just because your tax dollars support public schools does not mean that there should be 0 mention of Christmas. That to me is a wack job interpretation of the constitution.
    Your “right by majority” argument is baffling. You seem to have found a “right by minority” clause somewhere. The fact is, there are some things the majority do have a right to. Public expression of their religion, in the form of secret santas for example, is fine. If you don;t like it, put your kid in private school.

  11. Jack is right on the mark with both of his posts.
    Here’s a discussion we had about Israel where religion and the state are intertwined.
    http://www.jewlicious.com/index.php?p=489
    Mobius: Jews account for 2.5% of the population in the US. Other religious minorities combine for probably another 12-18% of the population. I have no idea how many of those who define themselves as Christian are “observant.”
    You should realize that most challenges to religious activity within the public sphere are given by atheists, not Jews. Jews get the rap for it, but when don’t we get the rap?
    When I pull my kid out of public school and place him in a private school so I don’t have to contend with Christmas festivities, would it be okay with you if I got part of my taxes back? Also, if I can’t get a job in Israel or have no connection to it other than Mr. O’Reilly telling me that I do, will you help me settle there, get a job that replaces my business and allows me to feed and house my family, and ensure that I acclimate by learning Hebrew, find replacement grandparents and parents and locate a new circle of friends?
    Thanks. Next time, I’ll be sure to have my mother give me birth in the country where Jews who don’t like Christmas hang.

  12. christmas has largly become a secular holiday anyway. what christian significance do the symbols of a christmas tree or santa claus have? the use of nativity-sets doesn’t even come close to that of those two symbols. even the time at which it’s celibrated is non-christian in origin – it was set to compete with pegan winter traditions.
    so what’s the problem here? well, i suppose it’s still called “christ”-mas… but, the word “goodbye” come from the phrase “good be with ye”, and yet i doubt many agnostics/athiests object to using it…
    (the same goes for easter, to a lesser extent. bunny rabbits and chocolate eggs = christs resurrection!?)

  13. The ironic thing is if you move to Israel – chances are that unless you’re haredi – you might find yourself feeling discriminated against under the color of law once you get there

  14. Mobius, I usually do agree with things you write, but im shocked about your writing this. SOME jews have been saying to others if you don’t like the way youre treated in a country, move to israel. but not all of them. not all jews want to move to israel and the thing that supposedly separates the usa from so many other countries is the fact that you can keep your own culture and lives here and not have interference from government run entities. i think a group of muslims would be as upset that their children have to make decorations that celebrate a holiday that has to do with the birth of someone else’s god/messiah. do you think it would be alright to tell them to move to indonesia or malaysia? NO, it would be outright racism but moreso stupidity because it totally misses the point of america. you shouldnt feel like you are the minority here and you shouldnt feel like you have to move somewhere that you are a majority. america does not exist so that we can all become this pseudo-christian assimilated person, and our tax dollars shouldnt pay for efforts to make our children want to celebrate xmas as an “american holiday” as many people claim. for the sake of all minorities, our public schools should be kept religion free. it has gotten better, at least in the Northeast in the past 30 years, my mom used to have to learn xmas carrols (INCLUDING A GERMAN ONE!!! for the daughter of holocaust survivors?!?!!!) and make easter decorations in public school. either way, they should not tell me xmas and haloween are american holidays and that my kids (when i have kids), if they want free education, have to take part in its festivities. whether or not it’s commercialized nowadays, xmas is christian, and im not, and i live in america and should not have to pay extra money for private school to keep my kids from being made to feel they should be part of it. god knows my parents spent way too much on schechter for me.
    as for o’reily, youre right, he is a dick.
    foxman, yeah he is nuts sometimes, but sometimes he hits the nail right on the head, and this is one of those times.
    please come to the US and find a group of hindus and tell them why they need to accept christman in public schools or they should send their kids to private hindu schools. please tell this to refugees and immigrants with almost no money, that they should not take the free education but rather spend money they dont have to make sure that in the land of free religion, teachers arent imparting a different religion on their kids in school.
    robbie

  15. no one is forcing anyone’s children to participate in these activities. i am a product of the public education system — i went to public schools from the 2nd grade on. and no one EVER forced me to make christmas decorations, nor did they force me to decorate easter eggs. instead, i was provided with an opportunity to teach my classmates about chanukah and pesach. yeah, there were some stupid kids that ostracized me for being different, but i totally got it worse from frum kids when i went to yeshiva.
    charles krauthammer makes a good point in yesterday’s washington post on the subject: if our children are educated enough in their own culture and tradition, than this poses no threat to them whatsoever. i was educated enough jewishly to know that i am a jew, and that i don’t celebrate christmas. but i was also wise enough to know i lived in a place where most people did. and that never bothered me. and you know why? cuz i got presents for 8 days and, as barbara rushkoff so delciately notes in her new book, i got to play with fire. tinsel is fun, but it’s just not FIRE! if you raise your kids to be proud jews and to know why we don’t celebrate christmas, to be surrounded by people who do shouldn’t make one iota of difference to you. and if it does, you a) have a bug up your ass, and b) should maybe move to a place where you’re not in the minority. and i say this because you are never going to convince 90% of america that christmas is offensive to minorities. you simply have to accept that that is the way it is. and if you can’t, yes, you ought to move.
    that’s not to say you shouldn’t stand up for what is just and right and vote and exercise your belief and your conscience… but i’m gonna side with herzl on this one. in the diaspora, we are guests in somebody else’s country, and for all the ballyhoo about being part of the fabric of american life, we are a very, very small portion of that fabric, and any insistence that we should be treated like we’re half the blanket is a matter more so of conceit than justice.
    let me ask you, in israel, do you think that they shouldn’t have giant menorahs in every kikar during chanukah? do you think there shouldn’t be mezuzahs on the door of every building? do you think the entire country should be stripped of its religious and cultural identity?
    if not, why should america be stripped of its religious and cultural identity? almost 90% of america is christian. they don’t have a right to force you to be christian, and they have to respect your right to practice judaism. but they don’t have to stop being christian just because you don’t like it. that is really the point of the matter.

  16. Mobius, the US was founded as a Christian country for the Christian nation?

    Perhaps, but it certainly wasn’t founded as a homeland for Jews who are really sensitive and don;t like their feelings hurt. What is important is what the country is in 2004 – a nation where 76% of the country identify as Christian (headline news poll this morning). We’ve lost track of the original point and have had a mouthful of red herrings thrown at us, so let us recap. Jews have a right to freely practice their religion in America. So do Christians. There is no constitutional right to *not be offended.* Their is no right by the minority to lord over the majority, and in instances of cultural/religious expressions where the majority naturally dominate due to numbers, the minority needs to learn how to deal with that or go to a place where they are the majority.
    Damn, for a stiff necked people we sure are thin skinned sometimes.

  17. Just because your tax dollars support public schools does not mean that there should be 0 mention of Christmas.
    From using tax dollars to support christmas activities in public schools, its just a short step to supporting other christian beliefs and activities that really do abridge citizens’ civil rights. How do you feel about our tax dollars being used for:
    – faith based programs that proselytize or employ discriminatory hiring practices while providing social services that should be provided by the “non-denominational” government.
    – federally-sponsored “separate but equal” marriage rules (bans on gay marriage because the bible tells us it’s wrong?)
    – prohibition on abortion and stem cell research because evangelists believe its murder. never mind that the iraq war is murder?
    see how much has changed in america these past four years. i really think it’s a short step, from the christian activities and decorations we currently tolerate in our public schools and buildings to killing innocents and abridging civil rights.

  18. Mobius, the US was founded as a Christian country for the Christian nation?
    Nooooooooo! Don’t believe the rightwing lies!
    The country was founded primarily by Christians, and certainly was influenced by their post-enlightenment understanding of that Christianity but by no means was it founded as a Christian Nation.
    In fact, after the revolution and the failed Articles of Confederation, churches (which had previously recieved governmental funding) no longer were able to gain such money from the government… until of course Dec. 12, 2002 with Bush’s ‘Faith Based’ Executive Order…
    In fact, one Christian group in 1863 was so concerned that the Nation wasn’t founded on Christian principles that they attempted to amend the preamble of the Constitution to acknowledge the authority of Jesus as the source of all law.
    So two things to keep in perspective from my perspective…
    1. The movement towards embracing our ‘christian heritage’ is nothing new.
    2. That movement is still incongruent with the initial ideology of America’s founders…

  19. Actually, Little Ol’ Me, it was founded as a homeland for Jews who are really sensitive and don’t like their feelings hurt. It was founded as a homeland for Chrisitians who are really sensitive and don’t like their feelings hurt. It was founded without any relationship to any religion.
    As for being thinskinned, here are the thoughts of former Supreme Court justice Harry Blackmun in the Lee v. Weisman ruling, 1992,
    “When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some.”

  20. Actually, Little Ol’ Me, it was founded as a homeland for Jews who are really sensitive and don’t like their feelings hurt. It was founded as a homeland for Chrisitians who are really sensitive and don’t like their feelings hurt. It was founded without any relationship to any religion.
    This is headed to a round and round discussion, but no T-M, this country was not founded to be a secular paradise without any relationship to any religion, and it certainly has evolved in to a country in which the vast majority of its citizens identify themselves as Christians (76%) and that Christian holidays have become *national* holidays. So once again, Jews have every right to worship freely as do Christians, and neither has a constitutional protection against being offended. Secret Santas, greetings of “merry Christmas” and making Christmas a federal holiday do not constitute oppression against the Jews. So I agree with O’Reilly when he says those Jews who can’t deal with said things should move then to a country where their own traditions are adopted as part of the national fabric. Your mileage may vary.

  21. Of course you agree with O’Reilly, that’s why we’re debating. Why don’t you check out the Declaration of Independence and let me know how religion is involved in the creation of this country.

  22. Well, I like the beginning part, “We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights….” Ok, so right off the bat we have a Creator, let’s call him God if you will. And it ends the same way, talking about that wacky God dude that religions worship…”And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
    Then we have in the bill of rights “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting
    the free exercise thereof.”

    OK, so I don’t read that as “nobody can do anything that hurts anyone elses feelings,” I read it as saying that there can’t be a state religion, but everyone is free to practice theirs as long as it does not stop someone else from doing the same. Feeling uncomfortable because 76% of the country celebrates Christmas does not qualify one for constitutional protection. Secret Santas and the Federal Government closing on Christmas does not stop me from being practicing Judaism in any way, shape or form. I understand that some Jews and others may feel put upon, I was one of 3 Jews in my graduating high school class of 250, I know what it’s like to stand out. But that did not give me the right to demand that the 247 non-Jews not celebrate their holiday.
    I hold by my original point, that public expression of religiosity by the majority is not in and of itself a violation of the minorities’ constitutional rights vis-a-vis the 1st amendment. We live in a country where the majority is Christian, where the country itself was indeed founded by people who believed in God, and that at no point in our history was this country meant to be a religion-free zone where any mention of religion in the public square was forbidden.

  23. If we’re playing w/ historical documents… I’d like to throw another one into the mix:
    GW’s Reply to the Hebrew Congregation in Newport RI — 8/17/1790
    http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/presidency/hebrew/hebrew2.html
    … It would be inconsistent with the frankness of my character not to avow that I am pleased with your favorable opinion of my Administration, and fervent wishes for my felicity. May the Children of the Stock of Abraham [i.e. the Jews], who dwell in this land, continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other Inhabitants; while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid. May the father of all mercies scatter light and not darkness in our paths, and make us all in our several vocations useful here, and in his own due time and way everlastingly happy.

  24. while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and figtree, and there shall be none to make him afraid.
    God help us when secret santas make poor wittle jewish kids so afwaid! 🙂

  25. A very interesting discussion (although only by 4 people – I think). I went to public school (outside the large metropolitan areas) in the 60’s-70’s. I quit the school band partly because of the xmas celebrations (of course I also had come to an impasse with my musical development). I was the kid who brought in the matza and the menorah to explain to the non-jews (and some jews) what we jews were all about. My father’s drug store did a tremendous amount of business around christmas (also sundays until they got rid of the blue laws).
    I became even more jewishly aware in high school and made aliya 21 years ago.
    Sociologists will tell you about pulls and pushes that influence a person to make a drastic change in their lives. So the xmas stuff was both a push away from america and the lack of it was a pull by israel.
    So if
    i believe that increased aliya from the us would be good for israel and the jewish people
    then should i be for the increased uncomfort of my brethren in the us (real or perceived).
    In any event this would be a better discussion about aliyah rather than what the head of the o-u said.
    Kobi

  26. Keep that religion stuff out of school. Why? Because religion is annoying. Keep it out—be it Christian, Jewish, whatever, unless it’s being studied in an academic manner, or as literature. Is there some homeland for atheists?
    God save us from all these religious people. Lord knows they are insane. Heavens, can’t they find something better to do?

  27. No Jack, actually your post highlights exactly what I am talking about. Too many Jews (or Black/Asian/Mexican if you prefer) have an attitude that they have a right not to be offended.
    Little Me,
    I never said any such thing. Read it again and see what you come up with.
    This is different than your argument which appears to be of the slippery slope argument – any public expression of the majority religion automatically results in the oppression of the religious minorities.
    Nope, didn’t say that. I said that right by might is not a moral position neither is claiming the higher ground because the majority agree with you.
    The whole point of the O’Reilly statement was that if a non-Christian is offended by the public celebration of Christian holidays, he/she should go to a country where there own religion is the majority. I agree 100% with that.
    I’ll support your right to be foolish, but you are as shortsighted as O’Reilly here. Try living in places in the bible belt where being different means a constant assault on you. A constant stream of people who think that they are entitled to “witness” to you and try and convert you. It is a concerted effort and it is wearing and it is not necessary.
    Just because your tax dollars support public schools does not mean that there should be 0 mention of Christmas. That to me is a wack job interpretation of the constitution.
    No one is asking for a complete removal of Xmas symbols. What we ask for are the same rights bestowed to everyone else. And if you want to argue about the First Amendment I am happy to entertain that. It is eminently clear that gov’t has no role in expressing religious beliefs and should maintain a position of neutrality.

    Your “right by majority” argument is baffling. You seem to have found a “right by minority” clause somewhere. The fact is, there are some things the majority do have a right to.

    Nice strawman argument, would you like me to step on the pieces before they blow away.
    Public expression of their religion, in the form of secret santas for example, is fine. If you don;t like it, put your kid in private school.
    It must be nice to pretend to be king and make rules haphazardly, even though they are misguided and stupid.
    Private school is exactly the place for this type of nonsense. Small minded thinking is a dangerous thing.

  28. Try living in places in the bible belt where being different means a constant assault on you. A constant stream of people who think that they are entitled to “witness” to you and try and convert you. It is a concerted effort and it is wearing and it is not necessary.
    missionizing and publicly celebrating christmas are two very different things. one is active and one is passive. missionizing in israel is illegal, for example. in the meantime, there are christmas decorations up on the street lamps lining bezalel street and emek refaim (the two places i’ve noticed them so far) which have been placed there by the municipality. oh the horror! i feel like my rights are being infringed upon! help! help! i’m being repressed! they’re trying to keep us down! oh…wait. the jews are the majority here. i don’t get it.
    No one is asking for a complete removal of Xmas symbols. What we ask for are the same rights bestowed to everyone else. And if you want to argue about the First Amendment I am happy to entertain that. It is eminently clear that gov’t has no role in expressing religious beliefs and should maintain a position of neutrality.
    what rights as jewish people do we not have that christian people do have in america? you’re asking for the same rights? you have the same rights. you have the right to publicly practice your religion without anyone having the right to prevent you from doing so by claiming to be offended by it. so what’s the problem?

  29. The problem is that a child in a school has no power. The school wields the power. If the school uses its authority to create an environment where those in the minority feel unwelcome, different and not part of the “right” approach to faith, then the powerless child is going to be shown, by example, that his faith is not the right one and that the other faith is the better one. It is also conceivable that he might feel it necessary, due to public and peer pressure, to participate in these activities that relate to a faith that isn’t his. I could go on about the other ways he could be harmed, but you get the picture.
    What O’Reilly said was that if an American born Jewish child experiences this situation in his school, he should either shut up about it, play along with it, or make his way to another country where Jews are the majority. It’s irrelevant to O’Reilly that the child might not be able to move, that his parents might not be able to move, that they have spent their entire lives as loyal and good Americans, that they may not know Israel, etc.,etc.
    Nope, if the kid is Jewish, he should shut up or leave because this is a Christian country.
    And you’re defending him, Mobius, and attacking those who told O’Reilly that he was wrong and in the wrong.
    This one is a no-brainer.

  30. If this were supposed to be a Christian nation, then why is there no mention of God in the Constitution while it does state that it, as opposed to any Bible, is the “supreme law of the land”?

  31. “If this were supposed to be a Christian nation, then why is there no mention of God in the Constitution…”
    Because the Constitution is a legal document containing the bare framework of the laws governing the Federal government, and the only non-legal part is the very brief Preamble.
    “…while it does state that it, as opposed to any Bible, is the “supreme law of the land”?”
    It doesn’t actually say that the notion of “supreme law of the land ” is opposed to anything. And the idea of “supreme law” is not meant to exclude other laws. The common law existed long before the Constitution, and continued to govern as the Constitution was ratified and after, to this day. What “supreme law” means is that any law CONTRADICTING the Constitution would be invalid.
    As to the notion of “Christian nation”, why is it so hard to accept that a country can have a legal framework that is largely religion-neutral, while at the same time be culturally mostly-Christian?

  32. J: “As to the notion of ‘Christian nation’, why is it so hard to accept that a country can have a legal framework that is largely religion-neutral, while at the same time be culturally mostly-Christian?”
    Fair enough. So, what do you mean by “culturally mostly-Christian”?

  33. Little Ol’ Me (12/18/04 06:07pm): “… Secret Santas and the Federal Government closing on Christmas does not stop me from being practicing Judaism in any way, shape or form. I understand that some Jews and others may feel put upon, I was one of 3 Jews in my graduating high school class of 250, I know what it’s like to stand out. But that did not give me the right to demand that the 247 non-Jews not celebrate their holiday.”
    It’s just not about secret Santas and office parties and trees in lobbies and that kind of stuff. What O’Reilly and other demagogues like Sean Hannity and Pat Buchanan are insisting, and way too many people agree, is that Christmas is under some kind of threat from liberals, intellectuals, secular humanists, and other subjective concepts for their audience to focus their insecurities on.

  34. I just love this line:
    “Try living in places in the bible belt where being different means a constant assault on you. A constant stream of people who think that they are entitled to “witness” to you and try and convert you. It is a concerted effort and it is wearing and it is not necessary.”
    Oh, baby. “Constant assault” is defined as people telling you things you don’t wish to hear. I’ll bet the people who have to worry if their life expectancy is five minutes or less every time they board a bus would be willing to exchange the form of “constant assault” they face. And, in fact, people ARE entitled to witness to you and to try to convert you (although they don’t have the right to succeed in this without consent). It may be wearing, but that’s how the first amendment goes (I’m referring to the speech parts here.
    And the post containing this howler ends with “Small minded thinking is a dangerous thing.”
    Beats having no mind at all.

  35. I feel like jumping into the fray. But with a little background first.
    I grew up in a medium sized industrial town in Ohio. My Aunt, on my fathers side, had married a man who was not Jewish. And the town I grew up in did not have a day school at the time. I graduated from a High school that had 1 other Jew in it, and I was always the one, as some one else said earlier, that got to explain Judaism to the ‘masses.’
    I have argued on other threads, mostly with Zionista, that this is a Christian country. I frankly don’t find that very troubling, I don’t feel like a second class citizen and never have, dispite the occasional anti-semetism that I have encountered. I find Bill O’Reilly annoying and occasionally entertaining, but was marginally offended by His comment. It was the context, not the comment itself. I have ‘celebrated’ Christmas (in the secular lets all exchange gifts kind-of-way since I was 4. See earlier comment about my Aunt.) I have always know I was Jewish and that Christmas was NOT my holiday, I haven’t really cared. I don’t find Christian symbols on public square all that problematic, and frankly have always enjoyed driving around this time of year to look at the decorated houses. I would have loved the opportunity to go to a day school, not to get away from Christianity, but for the Jewish education it would have afforded me.
    This discussion has covered a wide range of ‘issues,’ and I have been kind of suprised where some people have come out in it. If you look at the culture around you, you begin to realize that the real problem may be that we are to tolerant of stupid comments like O’Reilly’s. This is not to say that there may not be some ‘validity’ to what he says, if you are offended by the culture around you, which in the US is driven my the majority of the populous, you really have two choice, move out or change the situation. Changing the situation in the US is problematic at this time because of the overall political climate that prevails. But as with all things the pendulum swings, and will swing back eventually.
    In the mean time may everyone have a Very Jewish Christmas, and don’t eat too much Chinese food.

  36. Little Wolf: “I have argued on other threads, mostly with Zionista, that this is a Christian country.”
    And there is still a very big difference between simply acknowledging that this is a country full of Christians, and rolling over to tolerate the bullshit idea that this is Christian country.
    The main thrust of the USA-as-Christian-nation argument is a passive-aggressive assertion that to resist Christian proselytization is a form of intolerance. For example, if abortion remains a legal medical treatment then Christian faith is assaulted; if organized prayer remains prohibited in public schools, then Christianity is oppressed; if nativity scenes are prohibited from display on civil property, then the Christ slips right out of Christmas.
    The idea that no one is capable of taking the faith away from Christians is seldom even argued in such debates. Rather, it assumed from the start that public expressions of Christian faith are vital to Christianity, and to oppose them somehow vicitimizes Christians and jeopardizes their faith. It is a false sense of victimization that makes people stupid and dangerous.

  37. “Rather, it assumed from the start that public expressions of Christian faith are vital to Christianity, and to oppose them somehow vicitimizes Christians and jeopardizes their faith. It is a false sense of victimization that makes people stupid and dangerous.”
    Please allow me to clarify that last sentence. By “public expressions of Christian faith,” I mean specific civil displays, such as nativity scenes on municipal, county, state or Federal property, and not some choir’s rendition of “Silent Night” in a tree lighting in a some shopping mall. Again, this should help illustrate the difference between this being a country full of Christians and being a Christian country.

  38. Zionista:
    Frankly I think you need to go back and re-read my last post. I, personally, don’t find the public displays of Christianity all that big a deal.
    The other issues you raise, as far as prayer in public school, I don’t see the big deal, with only one proviso: The the prayer is not organized by the school to represent a single religion. I don’t have a problem is a student group is formed that supports a given religion. (The proselytization could be a problem with this.)
    As far as proselytization on a general scale, I have been subjected to it since I was a teenager, it has always been a bit fun for me because I find the assurtions made to be . . . silly. Though I have enjoyed ‘discussing’ issues with them.
    Abortion: I am not going to get into my personal stance on this it really isn’t relevant. Judaism is against it just as Christianity is, it is legal and I think it ought to be. Beyond that I don’t really think it comes in to play in a declaration that this is a Christian country.
    I am becoming convinced that you problem is with the term and not the concept. From you response, I think the problem is with how you are defining the term. You seem to think the idea indicates more than it does. We have never had a non-Christian President, and only one of them was Catholic. I, frankly, believe that there will be a Black President, and likely a female President, before this country would elect a non-Christian as President. This what I am thinking when I say that this is a Christian country. Your thinking seems to include some response to the current Presidents occasional over use of his religious belief in some of the statements he makes.

  39. Little Wolf,
    It’s not all that complicated. If an institution is publicly funded, then it stays out of the business of saving souls and celebrating spiritual revelations. Religious communities should be more than capable of taking care of themselves without the assistance of civil institutions. If they can’t, then what are they worth to their communities?
    If we wind up with legal decisions allowing Christian religious displays and practices in schools, city halls, federal institutions, etc. just because it’s the majority’s belief system then we better be ready to make room for the same for minority faith communities too. We should also be ready to abolish tax exemptions for all religious institutions if we are going to blur the line between them and civil institutions. If they want a piece of the civil infrastructure, they can pitch in like everybody else.

  40. Zionista:
    First of all, I think your whole problem with the term Chirstian country stems from you own fear of the Evangelical movement in this country.
    As far as the rest of your points, I don’t think I have ever said I back Bush’s “Faith Based Initiatives.” Having said that, The tax policies and governmental policies have always supported a number of religious institutions. This is why, for instance, that charitable donations are tax deductible. That the IRC establishes the 503(c) corporation as a tax exempt organization. Or that the Federal government has acknowledged that the Amish are religiously barred from paying Federal Income Taxes. The line between the civil infrastructure and religious institutions is both well established and generally overlooke by everyone.

  41. Little Wolf: “First of all, I think your whole problem with the term Chirstian country stems from you own fear of the Evangelical movement in this country.”
    And when Evangelical activists display leverage on the White House, a powerful impact on the legislature and a growing influence on the judiciary, why shouldn’t I fear the Evangelical movement in this country? You certainly don’t put my mind, or the mind of any good American, at ease by consistently trotting out the movement line that this is a “Christian country” when it fact and by any reasonable interpretation of constitutional law, it is not. But as soon as it is, it certainly will no longer share much in common with the motivating Enlightenment principles that threw off colonial subjugation of the British crown. Meanwhile, I like to maintain a sense of confidence that it won’t come to that. I thank you for your concern for my problem in this regard, and it should only be the biggest problem I ever have in my life.

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