Why do some palestinians hate Israel? Why do palestinians resist Israel’s occupation? Israel is a great place! it invented the taftafot! its girls are hot! even its soldiers look great in that uniform! its university system is public and one of the best in the world! Israel rocks!
It must be incitement. they are raised to hate us. It cant have anything to do with the occupation. that would be a stretch.

Ok . . . here’s another argument. But, I’ve seen a bunch of examples, physical, tangible examples of such, so I’m pretty skeptical.
Besides, the description in the reports seems to be vague. In 2003 here’s this broad statement that could be interpreted different ways:
“The curriculum undoubtedly bears the marks of unresolved (historical and contemporary) controversies both among Palestinians and with the neighbors of the
emerging Palestinian state. As such, the textbooks do not openly or adequately reflect the multiethnic, multicultural and multi-religious history of the region.
Furthermore, they do not present a multi-perspective account of several of the formative historical events and several of the still-unresolved issues (Jerusalem,
water, borders, settlements and refugees).” (Page 5)
“Inter-religious tolerance towards the followers of
the other monotheistic religions, traditionally referred to as “Ahl al-Kitab” (the People of the Book), is emphasized in the framework of the teachings of Islam. In principle, these calls apply to both Christians and Jews. However, the textbooks fail to extend these principles and concepts to include Jews and to the State of Israel. In addition, and although the curriculum provides the opportunity for students to recognize and respect beliefs and practices of “others,” the concept of the “other,” in most cases, is limited to Christians.” (Page 5)
“In particular, one notices a number of cases in which Judaism and the Jews are inadequately and inappropriately represented in relation to their
presence in the region.” (Page 6)
“Israel, as a sovereign state (political and geographic entity), is not clearly or adequately represented in the textbooks. Israel is referred to indirectly using different terms such as “the Land of the 1948”, “the Interior”, etc. In some contexts, Jews, in historical and modern-day contexts (occupation, Zionism, settlers) are negatively represented in Palestinian textbooks.” (Page 7)
Furthermore, I’m not sure if this is important, but partisan topics are covered early on in Palestinian textbooks, where in Israeli ones a different approach is taken. From the Israeli report,
“The latter three issues were covered mainly by the history textbooks. However, the history curriculum, whose aim is to structure the past and to create belongingness to the neighborhood, community, place of residence, country, etc., begins in 1st grade by
focusing on those aspects that are closest to the child. From 6th grade onward the history of the Jewish People does not deal with the history of the Land of Israel up to the beginnings of Zionism – this subject is only dealt with in 9th grade.” (Page 3)
It’s a compelling argument, but not enough to convince me that incitement does not exist. Sorry, John Brown, but you didn’t prove your case.

John Brown,
If the rage is so understandable, where was their rage at Black September in Jordan? Where was their rage when 300,000 of them were evicted from Kuwait after years and years of working and building up that country? If this is about the “understandable rage” of the decades of occupation, what was it that caused the riots and murders against Jews of 1920, 1921, and 1929?
I may be able to provide an answer to your non-suggestive post and innocent question after you provide a solid response to the above.
Thanks.

some other interesting articles about the incitement in textbooks controversy:
Reports on Palestinian kids’ hatred grossly exaggerated by Len Traubman
A campaign against incitement by James Zogby
Mirror image textbooks reflect bias Sydney Morning Herald
Learning all the wrong facts by Akiva Eldar

Hi, I can’t start a new thread, so John, could you please start a new posting on Black September? Thanks, can’t wait to weigh in on it.

velvel wrote:
“John Brown consistently avoids responsibility for what he’s really trying to say.”
No, I take full responsibility for what I did say – 3 factual statements and then a question.
“Notice the title of the post, “The myth of Palestinian textbook incitement?” What the fuck is the question mark for? The question mark leaves an escape when someone wants to discuss the opposing view.”
No, a question mark is used to denote that a sentence is a question – nothing more and nothing less. If I meant to say that incitement in PA textbooks is a myth then I could have used a period or an exclamation point. What I said is that Avenstrup writes that it may be a myth, and if you want to take issue with that claim, then go ahead.
T_M wrote:
“If I understood your topic correctly, both from your original post and your (non)response to Jared Goldberg, your topic is that Palestinian textbooks do not incite hatred toward Israel, Zionism, Judaism, or Western values.”
T_M you are once again trying (and failing) to put words in my mouth, when I have clearly already said that I made no such claim of “no incitement”.
The essense of what I wrote was my question. My question which you don’t seem to be able to answer.
“Could the often repeated claims of incitement in Palestinian textbooks be an attempt to find some alternative explanation to the understandable rage felt by Palestinians living under decades of occupation?”
T_M continued:
“[..snip T_M reintroduces previously rejected tangents..]
What exactly did you wish to discuss if not these issues? ”
I hoped to start a discussion on the issue of incitement in PA textbooks in 2004… not 1929 massacres, Kuwaiti actions in 1991, or other tangential topics.
Now, do you have anything to say about Avenstrup’s article or not?

Hey T_M, your little village misses you. Come Home.
There’s no sense arguing with John Brown. In his little village, all evil stems from Zionism. But for Zionism, the Jews and the Arabs would live in blissful peace together, side by side, as neighbours and friends like they had prior to the advent of Zionism.
And he’s kind of right. I mean no one stuck my family in Morocco into gas chambers. Pogroms and such were quite rare. Compared to our coreligionists in Europe, we got off easy.
The only things the Arabs ever expected of us was that we knew our place. As long as we didn’t get to uppity, and didn’t assert ourselves or get the idea into our head that we could be equals, then we were warmly tolerated – kind of like the family pet.
Zionism and the State of Israel changed all that. The existence of Jews as equals?? That’s far more offensive to the Arab / Islamic sensibility than Black September (Clan warfare) or the expulsion from Kuwait (desert justice). To John Brown and anyone else who will tolerate my existence as long as I don’t get to uppitty, I just have this to say: Blow me.
Now come on home….

shtreimel: As usual you’re way off-base and come off like a complete asshat in the process. This thread is about PA textbooks – and claims made about them in the media – not Israel (with the exception of the link to ICPRI’s report on Israeli texts, the purpose of which is not to ‘discredit’ Israel)

Sweet John Brown, very sweet. At least your response wasn’t a spelling flame (too instead og to – 2 spellings of upitty in one post…), but in terms of it being compelling, you’re not that far off.
Paranoid and delusional? Dude – I’ve read your stuff. Talk about projecting!
I can say though that my comment had little to do with the original post and deals more with your world view. That would have made for a better response. But whatever …

People who havent learnt in israeli educational system, vevel, might not be aware of the fact that the map of israel as usually presented to students does not differentiate between the occupied territories and israel per se. so i dont understand why you expect any better from the palestinian textbooks (see first link)?

Asaf: Because it’s our fucking land, that’s why there’s no delineation. When a Palestinian state gets declared, it will be on our land. The state will be created because of our historically unprecedented largesse towards a hostile and recalcitrant people, WHO LOST WAR AFTER WAR. I’m tired of making excuses. Take fucking Gaza, take a big chunk of Yehuda and Shomron, take Hebron and mearat hamachpelah, take Gush Etzion and the ghosts of massacred Jews and all the other sites that are precious to us – just shut the fuck up already!
Seriously, has there ever been a more chutzpahdick and out and out whiny people than the Palestinians? Mapik kvar, nim’as li!

Asaf: Because it’s our fucking land, that’s why there’s no delineation. When a Palestinian state gets declared, it will be on our land. The state will be created because of our historically unprecedented largesse towards a hostile and recalcitrant people, WHO LOST WAR AFTER WAR. I’m tired of making excuses. Take fucking Gaza, take a big chunk of Yehuda and Shomron, take Hebron and mearat hamachpelah, take Gush Etzion and the ghosts of massacred Jews and all the other sites that are precious to us – just shut the fuck up already!
Seriously, has there ever been a more chutzpahdick and out and out whiny people than the Palestinians? Mapik kvar, nim’as li!

T_M you are once again trying (and failing) to put words in my mouth, when I have clearly already said that I made no such claim of “no incitement”.
I guess you and I interpret “Dr. Roger Avenstrup writes that the idea of Palestinian schools teaching hatred of Jews in their textbooks may be primarily a myth” differently, especially when you follow with a quote that says “researchers find no incitement to hatred in the Palestinian textbooks.”
Yup, there was no intention on your part to make a claim of no incitement, merely to quote passages and links that say it and to add your own comment that it may be a myth.
At least you said “may.”
“Could the often repeated claims of incitement in Palestinian textbooks be an attempt to find some alternative explanation to the understandable rage felt by Palestinians living under decades of occupation?”
I hoped to start a discussion on the issue of incitement in PA textbooks in 2004… not 1929 massacres, Kuwaiti actions in 1991, or other tangential topics.
Now, do you have anything to say about Avenstrup’s article or not?
Well, actually, I do. The answer to your question is:
1. no. The often repeated claims of incitement in Palestinian textbooks ARE NOT an attempt to find some alternative explanation to the “understandable rage” felt by Palestinians living under decades of occupation. They are valid claims of incitment and the reasons for the incitement are not all that mysterious, although they are far from “understandable.”
2. If you look at my comments again, you will note they are far from tangenital. They address your loaded, biased question by commenting on whether the rage is “understandable” or is caused by the “decades of occupation.”
If you had bothered to answer my questions, instead of adroitly ignoring them, then you would come up against the inevitable conclusion that the “often repeated claims of incitement” are not only correct but are caused by the hypocritical rage of the Palestinians.
Get it? The “rage” is not “understandable” if it doesn’t exist where worse crimes against Palestinians do not merit the same venom, hatred, violence or sickeningly hostile education.
Furthermore, you would realize that the second part of your assertion, that the occupation is causing this rage is completely invalid if there was “rage” and incitement as far back as the days when Jews represented 10% of the population and there was no state to occupy anybody.
On the other hand, congratulations, you have managed to keep this discussion going when we could have killed it in its youth had you simply addressed my very pertinent questions.

Assaf, your comments are not valid for the state and state religious schools, on;y for the Ultra-Orthodox schools:
The atlas most commonly used in the State and State Religious schools continues to include a map which shows the area of the West Bank with its division into Areas A, B and C. In the 2002 edition the map of the areas of the Autonomy is updated to include the latest changes. (see Appendix I)
In the other atlas the “Area of the Palestinian Autonomy” is colored gray within the map of Israel. On the physical maps in both atlases the political borders with Jordan and Egypt are marked, without any indication of the green line.
Use of multidisciplinary textbooks
There is a growing tendency to use multi-disciplinary textbooks that integrate history, geography, environmental studies, archeology and Jewish thought in an effort to encompass multi-faceted and complex issues.
B: Ultra-Orthodox Stream
There is a marked difference between the textbooks of the State and State Religious schools and those of the ultra-Orthodox stream, whose approach to sensitive issues continues to highlight trends contrary to those listed above.
The differences detailed in the previous report still exist.
Language is used that conveys an air of superiority and negative expressions appear.
The map of Israel always includes all of the territory between the Mediterranean Sea and the River Jordan. Many of the textbooks show maps of the Middle East on which only Israel’s name appears, the territories of the surrounding Arab countries being depicted without indication of their names.
http://www.edume.org/reports/8/1.htm
Tom C., while you are right about other forms of incitement, if you read the IPCRI site, you’ll see the incitement also exists within the textbooks.

Incitement 101
The incitement is there but not in the text books… the incitement comes by way of the media (usually PA owned or controlled). This is both good and bad… bad in that there is incitement, good in that in order to stop it all you need to do is start making different shows, not rewrite an entire state’s textbooks.

JB,
I’m practically convinced. I now know that the Israeli propaganda machine tells us more lies than not. The Palestinians are turning toward peace and waiting for a partner on our side. Are we up to take advantage of this historical occasion?
If you have an answer, email me. In the meantime, I’ll be at friends on their hilltop outpost helping them spruce up their garden. Just in time for Tu b’shvat, everyone can help out too: http://www.trees4yesha.org/

T_M: I am talking from personal anecdotal experience only. I went to modern orthodox schools and non-religious schools. many of the maps dont include the green line. I prefer ck’s response because it is closer things actually are.

the history i received in israel was many times no more than propaganda and history out of context. i really dont expect any better from the palestinian or any other group in a political struggle. well i do.. 🙂 but i find people blaming only palestinians or only israel for such propaganda – very hypocritical.

Yes Asaf, our land. Not theirs.
I know you think this makes me sound like some kind of fanatic nutter, but I’m not. I am all in favour of territorial compromise for the sake of peace. I think it should have happenned a long time ago too – it would have made for a great post-sinai segue. But yeah. It’s our land, not theirs. Not at all.
I hope they appreciate the sacrifice we are making, but I’m afraid they might not. I hope they settle down ASAP and start to focus on their national and personal well being instead of celebrating a cult of death. I’m skeptical but hopeful, because oy vay voy lahem if they don’t stop fucking around …

You know CK, they think it’s all their land too. They say they compromised on 78% of Palestine in 1988 when they recognized the existence and legitimacy of Israel. Now you say you are compromising on Yesha by “giving it back.”
You have to admit that if one weren’t Jewish or Arab, it would pretty much seem like two irreconcilably lunatic sides were going at each other here.

And you sound like Chamberlain, John Brown.
Reread what he wrote, and then go read the Hamas Charter and get back to us.
Oh wait, you won’t because that’s another tangent that proves another claim you’ve made look ridiculous and wrong…
CK, come home to Jewlicious…

Well John Brown, there’s a certain honesty about Hamas isn’t there? I mean, say what you will about them, they are at least very straightforward and honest about their aims and their motivations. I may not like them much, and they sure as heck don’t like me, but with Hamas, what you see is what you get. I can respect that a lot more than I can respect people who couch all kinds of sinister motivations behind nice words and supposedly lofty higher ideals.
And Sam? They can think whatever they like. They continue to be there because unlike what any other victorious nation with an overwhelmingly superior military would have done, we let them stay. I really wouldn’t have it any other way – but I am not so naive to think that had the tables been turned, their kindness would match ours. In any case, let’s hope I never have to find out whether I’m right about that or not. Me? An irreconcilable lunatic? Hardly. I’d be thrilled to live in Peace with them. I beg, pray and urge them every day to challenge me with peaceful coexistence.

HOGWASH.
One of the agrrements at Oslo was to reform the Palestinian Education system. One of the primary problems behind the Palestinians is the hatred taught to them from a young age.
There are polls done on the children as to how many would love to be Shahids (martyrs) the numbers are scary.
If you belive the media’s assertion that the Palestinans school books are “peaceful” I’ve got a couple of bridges to sell you.
For a comprehensive source see http://www.honestreporting.com

Oh, and I think we should televise the “Battle of the Extremists.” After all why waste that kind of entertainment.

from camera.org, quoting the report itself:
November 2004 report
This report completely undermines Avenstrup’s argument, and he ignores it altogether. In short, the report finds:
Palestinian text books have confused messages and it is not difficult to come to the understanding that the main political theme imparted to the students is that Israel should not exist and that is essentially the Palestinian goal.
In addition, the “Background to the Document” notes:
In Palestinian text books dealing with Islamic studies – concepts such as Jihad and martyrdom are presented in contexts that suggest being supportive and encouraging young people to admire both the concept of suicide bombing aimed at killing Israelis, as well as to consider the possibility of becoming suicide bombers themselves. . . .
It should be mentioned, that in our view, some of the [international and Israeli] reports and some of the motivation for writing the reports were part of the anti-Palestinian propaganda campaign waged by various right-wing Israeli and pro-Israeli groups, nevertheless, the substantive critiques with quotations and hard evidence cannot and should not be ignored by the Palestinian Authority as a mere anti-Palestinian propaganda campaign . (Emphasis added.)
The document goes into greater detail about these and additional problems in the sections called “Palestine,” “Dealing with the ‘Other,’” “Dealing with Islamic Texts and Concepts,” and “Dealing with Jerusalem.”
In addition, this report dispels the common propaganda repeated by Avenstrup that “the original allegations [of incitement] were based on Egyptian or Jordanian textbooks.”