Conservative Jews Grow Restless as D-Day Approaches for Gay Ordination
The following statement was submitted anonymously to Jewschool.com.
As a Rabbinical student in one of the Conservative Movement Rabbinical Schools, spending the year studying in Israel at the Schechter Institute, I am both proud and ashamed of my Movement in regard to the handling of the decision as to whether we will accept Gays.
On December 6, we have been told, the Law Committee of the Rabbinical Assembly (the organization of Conservative rabbis) will hand down decisions on the Halachic permissibility of ordaining Out Gays. The presumption is that at least two opinions will be accepted as valid. Perhaps more than two if the political machinations of the traditionalist fail. It seems there will be an effort to declare two Tshuvot (legal responsum), one by Rabbi Gordon Tucker and one by Rabbis David and Robert Fine, to be Takanot and hence require more than six votes to be accepted. The procedure for declaring a Tshuva to be a Takana does NOT appear in the constitution of the Rabbinical Assembly and has been introduced by those seeking to hijack a process long in place and prevent progress in this area.
In any case it is thought that a traditional Tshuva (by Rabbi Joel Roth) and a more progressive Tshuva by Rabbis Dorf, Nevins, and Resiner will obtain the necessary six votes. This will mean that all Conservative Rabbinical Schools will be allowed to ordain Gays. The Zeigler School (University of Judaism) has announced that if the progressive Tshuva is accepted, they will immediately accept Gay applicants. The Chancellor elect of the Jewish Theological Seminary has put in place a process to help JTS come to a decision. While he is not a rabbi, Professor Arnie Eisen is on record as supporting ordination of Gays.
I am proud of my Movement for having the courage to struggle with this issue. We have the only group of rabbis who are struggling with the difficult seeming conflict between Jewish Law, as it has been traditionally understood, and the need for Jewish Law to evolve through interpretation.
I am proud of the University of Judaism for taking a stand that will surely be unpopular with many of our members.
I am proud of the forty JTS students who stood outside of the gates of the institution, last week, with mouths covered by tape to protest the silencing of Gays in our Movement.
I am proud of Professor Eisen for taking a firm stand when it is almost certain to offend many donors to JTS.
I am proud of the students here in Israel who sported stickers at the ordination of Israeli Conservative rabbis, that said “Rabbinic Ordination for All” on a rainbow flag background.
I am proud of the 270 Gay friendly Conservative rabbis who have signed on to keshetrabbis.org.
Yet I am also ashamed.
I am ashamed that it has taken us so long to reach this day. Perhaps that is the price of membership in a movement that prefers evolutionary change to revolutionary change.
I am ashamed at what was the clear effort of the outgoing Chancellor, Ismar Schorsch, to stack the Law Committee with appointments of people who have little sympathy for Conservative Judaism beyond taking a paycheck and fails to express concern for the pain his position causes to so many.
I am ashamed of the dean of the Israeli Rabbinical School, Rabbi Einat Ramon, who in an Haaretz article last week accused those who are more liberal on the issue of Gay ordination, of “intellectual totalitarianism.” Indeed the head of the Schechter Institute, Rabbi David Golinkin called the entire matter of Gay ordination irrelevant for Israelis (this after the near riots concerning the Jerusalem Pride Parade and the registration of married Gay couples).
I am ashamed that the Movement is willing to allow Rabbi Joel Roth to author the traditional opinion considering his sordid sexual past (see “Joel Roth” in the Wikipedia online encyclopedia).
So I am proud and I am ashamed. But I hope that come December 6, I will say with pride, “This is the day that the Lord has made, let us be happy and rejoice today.”
Anonymous
This is a very one-sided article. Some people try to compromise, and they deserve respect – if not agreement.
The ad hominem potshot at Joel Roth I’d say violates “responsible speech online”. Not that I’m on his side. But sides shouldn’t matter when the question is shemirat halashon.
As a Conservative Jew, I agree that this is the right outcome. However, I see our lengthy deliberations as a blessing – both here and elsewhere. It helps us to make sure we are making the right decisions without rushing to judgment.
An anonymous rabbinic student writing this? Oy…. it was more or less reasonable until the roth bit at the end. I say, let’s model forgiveness of past sins that have been dealt with. And I don’t see why his own sexual past affects his writings on halacha.
His Sexuality or Sexual misgivings has nothing to do with this issue. I agree with the other comments…
I actually have a very serious question for the halacha folks in the Consv Movement: Allow for women to become rabbis ment that women would take on all responsiblities of the men in addition to the responsibilities of women. SO that said what is to be done when that women is on her period? Can she wrap t’fillin or read from the torah or be on the bimah? If someone could let me know how to change halacha at the same time as keeping it the same please let me know. I am very interested in this point.
email it to iamaliberaljew at gmail dot com
Thanks folks.
i think it’s completely legitimate to question why a person with questionable sexual ethics is permitted to pontificate against homosexuality.
one word: foley.
Mob, what is the difference between having questionable sexual ethics, and sinning? If this is a debate between Roth ‘supporting sex with students’ but condemning homos, then it’s a debate over ethics. But if it’s Roth who committed a sin, paid for and made teshuva, having a a halachic opinion about gay rabbbis then I don’t understand your point.
Are you saying that any who has ever cheated in a relationship has no say on this matter? That anyone who has ambiguity, weakness and shame in their sexual history is disqualified from a public opinion? This isn’t like Foley at all. Roth is not simultaneously condemning something while covertly practicing it.
This is so silly. The Conservative Movement is a non-Movement…a dead idea…a relic from the 60’s-70’s. The only relevance it has is:
a) For folks who want to sit with their entire family (though you can do that at any non-Ortho shul)
b) It’s closer in driving distance than the Reform shul in your neighborhood.
If there weren’t so many people on salary (hell even Neil Gillman told me…9 years ago, that he should be teaching at rrc), the movement would morph with Reform and provide safe, clean High Church Judaism to suburban Jews. And there’s nothing with that…zzzzz. But let’s stop pretending that there’s any difference b/w these movements.
just like your sin is between you and god, so is your teshuva. for the sake of professionalism and appropriateness, a person who has engaged in such unethical behavior, whether or not they have done teshuva, by the merit of their act alone, has forfeited their entitlement to determine what is ethical behavior for others.
shtreimel, you’d appreciate my latest instant messenger away message:
the jewish theological cemetary — where judaism goes to die
“the jewish theological cemetary — where judaism goes to die”
Exactly. But it’s a shame. Theologically…I’m very much a Conservative Jew. But there’s so few Conservative Jews who take prayer, meditation, God, study…seriously (actually, the teens take USY conventions very, very seriously, discussing their new interest in baseball: “Yo man, after Mincha, Sharronand I went from 2nd to Third base…it was awesome!!!”)…the only place to find these things are in Orthodoxy and Renewal.
1. Conservative Judaism has its problems, but they’re not more serious than those of the other movements – all those wonderful indie minyans out there that everyone is raving about? They’re by and large started and run by Conservative Jews, and function more or less in Conservative minhag. So much for the disappearing Conservative movement. Streimel, as usual, you’ve wandered off into ridiculous theory territory. Gillman is welcome to RRC, but many many CJews aren’t interested in ahalachic Judaism.
Sure, some are, and they should go there – but if anyone remembers the state that Orthodoxy was in 20 years ago, it wasn’t so different.
If CJ disappears, fine, I’ll be Orthodox, but I’ll be Orthodox like thousands of other Jews and pull it wildly to the left (women rabbis, well, okay, you’ve already got that, but women rabbis who pasken and daven- women who lead services, people who don’t mind openly gay and lesbian persons in their shul, rabbis who do commitment ceremonies, …etc). Is that what you all want? granted I could stand us moving pretty far to the right on some thngs ( can we all please get serious about shabbat, kashrut, taharat hamishpachah, halacha on labor and employee rights- which the O still are working on too, I notice-) so maybe that would be a god thing. Hey! Let’s start a new movement, let’s call it radical orthodoxy! I’m in… anyone else?
2.Why the attack on Joel Roth? I’m no supporter of his position on this issue (I more or less hold with Rabbi Dorff, whose name I note the rabbinical student misspelt), and if Rabbi Roth did something for which he still needs to do tshuvah, then we should certaily be talking about that (although given what’s out there, “sordid sexual past” seems to hardly a pply to a man who made what appears to be two comments that were sexual in nature to students, with no other event. I can’t find any evidence of what the statements were, but given what I know of the man, I’d be willing to bet on something cynical and cutting, rather than propositional in nature. I’m open to correction if someone else has some direct connection to the facts. In any case, I don’t see what connection there is between his halachic opinion, which is weighty, and his own comments.
3.So that said what is to be done when that women is on her period? Can she wrap t’fillin or read from the torah or be on the bimah? If someone could let me know how to change halacha at the same time as keeping it the same please let me know. I am very interested in this point.
There is no change of halacha required here. Beore posting ridiculous comments, please go and actually research the halachah. One can’t tamei the Torah.
And that’ s not even getting into the question of how much cleaner your average woman (or man for that matter) is today as compared to anyone in the middle ages or at pretty much any era prior to ours. For heavens sake most of us shower daily! Your average menstruating woman is far cleaner than the rabbis of the talmud; we have access to water and soap on an as needed basis! Not to mention tampons.
If you’re going to take a crack at someone’s sexual history, be as kind as to provide your own name. You know, slinging lashon hara without having it slung back at you just isn’t cricket.
Im Yirtzeh HaShem we’ll be ordaining gays and lesbians shortly, and get back to work at actually learning and living Torah. For once
POLJ – sifrei torah and tefillin aren’t mekabel tumaah – they can’t be made ritually impure. A women on her period won’t make either of them unkosher
“Streimel, as usual, you’ve wandered off into ridiculous theory territory.”
Kol, without name calling, can you point out what’s ridiculous about my statement. I worked for the movement from ’90-’95, applied to JTS, and have a good friend who graduated from their rabbinical school in ’93. I’m not an expert, but I’m informed. It would seem that Conservative Judaism DOES provide adolescents with an excellent intro to baseball, especially on annual conventions:
“Dude, right after Mincha, Sue and I went from 2nd base to 3rd base.”
Well, if that’s your biggest complaint, I can’t really disagree. I certainly had some of my earliest er, adolescent sexual encounters, at USY conventions and camps. I hardly see how that’s a problem thouhg, as long as it doens’t get out of hand or dangerous for anyone, and everyone is consenting and within a reasonable age of one another.
I mean ideally, sure we’d all like outr kids to wait for marriage, but, um, “tefillin dates” resonate with anyone?
What I was taking issue with was non-Movement…a dead idea…a relic from the 60’s-70’s.and morph with Reform and provide safe, clean High Church Judaism to suburban Jews and my response was already included in my previous comment:
CJ is providing some of the hottest minyans out there – they’re just not caling themselves Conservative. But they’re filled with Conservative Jews doing Conservative minhag.
Does it bother me that they don’t call themselves Conservative? Not especially. I guess if I was especially dedicated to movements for movements sakes, I would be, but I’m not, I’m committeed to halachic, progressive Jews. If they want to
clal (typo, as usual, but I’ll leave it in) themselves “Jews from Mars,” that’s okay with me. The other point I made was that the state of CJ right now is not so different from the state of Orthodoxy 20 years ago. Right down to the comments about how boring it all is, and they seem to have recovered. I’m not content that CJ should rest on its laurels, but it has , as a movement brought things to Judaism which wil continue to have effect for a ;long time. SUre some CJ shuls are boring. NU, so what? The people who dont want boring shuls will continue to build new ones, or new institutions, or new movements, or they just go off and be less boring. *shrug*
If they want to call themselves anything, or nothing at all, that’s all okay with me. Let the wild rumpus begin!
No amount of scrubbing will make a woman clean enough for the Guardians of the Faith. Those who fear a woman touching the Torah while she’s menstruating are obviously a little off on female anatomy. Nobody menstruates through her fingertips. Except my Aunt Edna, but she’s always been “different.”
I agree with Squat…let’s move on and get back to ratzon hashem.
I find it telling that so many of the indie minyans have been started by Conservative jews – how many of us are fleeing/have fled from the “official” Conservative joints because the services and the attitudes don’t speak to us?
I was raised Conservative, and I definitely feel the connection to the Conservative liturgy, but if I had to choose a movement today it would be the Reform movement, because strangely enough, they and the Reconstructionists are the ones actually intellectually engaging the Torah and interpreting in ways that I think even Rashi would approve. Judaism is an innovative and dynamic religion that is firmly based in tradition, and no, that is not a complete contradiction.
Bravo to the JTS students and all the Conservative rabbis who have been working so hard against steep opposition to bring about this long-overdue change…
It seems to me that if Joel Roth’s position on the ordination issue is that a person’s private sexual actions should be subject to public scrutiny and can be used to judge whether s/he is fit to serve as a leader, then it is only fair that this standard be applied to Roth himself. If Roth thinks that these matters should be private, then JTS should start ordaining gay and lesbian rabbis, and their sexuality should be a matter between them and God.
I think it was entirely fair for Anonymous to bring this up, just like Eric Berndt’s question to Justice Scalia.
It seems to me that if Joel Roth’s position on the ordination issue is that a person’s private sexual actions should be subject to public scrutiny and can be used to judge whether s/he is fit to serve as a leader, then it is only fair that this standard be applied to Roth himself. If Roth thinks that these matters should be private, then JTS should start ordaining gay and lesbian rabbis, and their sexuality should be a matter between them and God.
except that’s not his position. His position is that halakhah is something to which theleaders of the community must adhere as best they can, and that we don’t ordain those who publicly admit to violating it. That includes not simply sexual behavior, but a rabbi who ate and admitted eating cheeseburgers (his metaphor, by the way). He regards homosexual bahvior as a violation of halakha, and thus by logic, a rabbi who has homosexual sex of any kind ought not to be a rabbi.
The argument against Rabbi Roth is not to attack some remarks he is alleged to have spoken, but to argue with his position, which is, IMO wrong. Why it’s wrong is elucidated in my opinion by the Dorff tshuvah (From what I understand is in it) and because he is mixingup male and female homosexual behaior, which is not treated the same way by the rabbis at all.
The man is unquestionably brilliant as a halakhist. Does that make him infallable? No, no more than it does Orthodox rabbis whomake all sorts of ridiculous pronuncements ( anyone for a repeat of say, the announcement that Holocaust victims more or less had it coming by Rabbi O.Yosef?). Does tha fact that he made some comments make him not a rabbi? I don’t think so. Even if they were very unpleasant comments, I might not want him to be my rabbi, but that hardly merits defrocking or whatever. After all the man wasn’t a pedophile or rapist or abuser (at least as far as anyone knows at this point. He may need to do tshuvah. THAT is between him and God and whomever he spoke to.
Kol Ra’ash Gadol writes:
all those wonderful indie minyans out there that everyone is raving about? They’re by and large started and run by Conservative Jews, and function more or less in Conservative minhag.
What do you mean by “Conservative Jews”? Even if you mean “people who were part of the Conservative movement before they left”, the percentage is significant but smaller than you seem to think (there are plenty of independent minyanim started and run by people from Reform, Orthodox, Reconstructionist, and nondenominational backgrounds), and if you mean “people who currently identify as Conservative”, the numbers drop rapidly.
And what do you mean by “Conservative minhag”? Praying in Hebrew, and egalitarian? The Conservative movement doesn’t have a monopoly on this, as much as it wants to claim a semantic one by saying that anyone else who prays this way is following “Conservative minhag”. Anyway, it’s not even true on a superficial level. Of the “traditional egalitarian” minyanim I’m familiar with that have been founded this decade, most of them have more elements in common with Orthodox services, except for the whole egal thing.
Kol Ra’ash Gadol-
Where are you drawing a distinction between the cases? Are you saying that Roth’s comments did not violate halacha, while homosexual sex (according to Roth’s opinion) does? Or are you saying that he violated halacha, but has already been ordained (parallel to Conservative rabbis who have come out after ordination), in contrast to people who haven’t yet been admitted to rabbinical school and can be kept out?
I’m saying that saying that Roth has no right to pasken halakha because he made some comments is ridiculous. I don’t agree with his opinion, but he is unquestionably knowledgable and without a doubt a rabbi. I have no idea if his comments violated halakha or not, having no access to them. No matter what , they hardly constitute a “sordid sexual past.”
As for the minyans having more in common with Orthodox minyans… IMO is simply untrue. I can’t even imagine what you mean by that.
As for the minyans having more in common with Orthodox minyans… IMO is simply untrue. I can’t even imagine what you mean by that.
For example, aesthetics regarding melodies and nusach. “Conservative” tunes are frowned upon.
what’s the criticsm of Joel Roth? That he could matir Gay Rabbis if he wanted to, and just doesn’t want to?
For example, aesthetics regarding melodies and nusach. “Conservative†tunes are frowned upon.
Nusach, really? That makes it Orthodox?
That’s an interesting perspective.
I didn’t say that made it Orthodox. You said that most independent minyanim (and I assume you mean the “trad egal” ones) follow Conservative MINHAG, and I gave an example in which they don’t. (I didn’t list the examples of how they don’t follow Conservative hashkafa, because that wasn’t the topic.) What did you mean by “Conservative minhag”?
As for the minyans having more in common with Orthodox minyans… IMO is simply untrue. I can’t even imagine what you mean by that
The matbeah/order and content of the liturgy) of many new indie minyans is also closer to Orthodox than Conservative. There’s also blessedly little-to-no talking done by the shaliach tzibur/prayer leader, which is an aesthetic much more prevalent in Orthodox shuls than Conservative ones.
And to bring the discussion back to the topic at hand, most if not all egal indie minyans I know of could care less about their participants’ sexual orientation. Certainly can’t say the same for Conservative-affiliated groups.
I would say concider Conservative minhag to include the Conservative version of the Prayer for our Country, which you’ve commented on yourself. Also, the right comparison isn’t indie minyan to Conservative megashul in suburbia, but indie minyan to a Ramah minyan.
How come everyone picked up on Joel Roth. Heck, if he made some sort of improper suggestion, be it to a man or a woman, who cares? Isn’t he a symptom, not a malaise?
Look at the others in here thatthe bleatings over the alleged or real sexual misdemeanors of Roth are masking!
Look at Rabbi Einat Ramon, who in an Haaretz article last week accused those who are more liberal on the issue of Gay ordination, of “intellectual totalitarianism.â€
Look at the clear effort of the outgoing Chancellor, Ismar Schorsch, to stack the Law Committee with appointments of people who have little sympathy for Conservative Judaism beyond taking a paycheck
How come these don’t merit a mention? Or are you all getting confused because the word “sex” turned up in the text? So Roth propositioned a guy in 1993. Whoopeeee. He probably wanted to know what it felt like? Who knows. He resigned. I’m not sure he should not have “declared an interest” before being in judgement on the topic, that’s for sure, but it’s only sex, isn’t it?
Me, I like the idea of a rabbi who has lived a little. If their partner is male or female, why should I care? I don;t need to inspect their bedroom, I just want a good set of morals and respect for their partner.
hahahaha i’m gonna go touch things while i’m menstruating!!! revolt!!!
To Anonymous Conservative Rabbinical Student at Schechter:
I am also a Conservative Rabbinical Student at Schechter. You know me and probably know what I think about this issue. You are entitled to your opinion as I am entitled to mine. Yet, I must say that making judgments about Rabbi Roth in public and bringing this scandal as an argument to disqualify him is not only unkind, but -since you have not graced us with your name- also incredibly cowardly. It is a sad symptom of the paranoia of the left at JTS, which feels persecuted at every moment when, in truth, it holds most of the Rabbinical School under its sway. When the decision comes out this week, will you please be bolder and, at least have the courage of defamating Talmidei Chachamim under your own name?
Leshalom,
Juan
As a Conservative Jew, I agree that this is the right outcome. However, I see our lengthy deliberations as a blessing – both here and elsewhere. It helps us to make sure we are making the right decisions without rushing to judgment.
This is one of the main reasons that I identify as a Conservative Jew.
shtreimel, you’d appreciate my latest instant messenger away message:
the jewish theological cemetary — where judaism goes to die
Um, Mobius, your “joke” doesn’t work here- Jewish Theological Seminary is JTS not JTC. I would also expect you to have more respect for one of the most significant Jewish religious institutions in the world, especially one that you agree with on most issues it seems.
I am in near total agreement with post #12.
Exactly. But it’s a shame. Theologically…I’m very much a Conservative Jew. But there’s so few Conservative Jews who take prayer, meditation, God, study…seriously (actually, the teens take USY conventions very, very seriously, discussing their new interest in baseball: “Yo man, after Mincha, Sharronand I went from 2nd to Third base…it was awesome!!!â€)…the only place to find these things are in Orthodoxy and Renewal.
Streimel, I spent 3 years in USY and did not pick up an interest in “the baseball” you are referring to and did not know anyone else who did either. I did meet many Jews who did not care about Halacha, however.