Food for Thought
“Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. ‘Patriotism’ is its cult. It should hardly be necessary to say, that by ‘patriotism’ I mean that attitude which puts the own nation above humanity, above the principles of truth and justice; not the loving interest in one’s own nation, which is the concern with the nation’s spiritual as much as with its material welfare –never with its power over other nations. Just as love for one individual which excludes the love for others is not love, love for one’s country which is not part of one’s love for humanity is not love, but idolatrous worship.”
— Erich Fromm, “Psychoanalysis of Contemporary Society”
JB, Apropos:
“In the Light of the mighty idea of the unity of existence, there is eliminated the problem of self-love, which some have made into the source of all sin, and others into the source of all morality. There is only love for all things, which is in truth an enlightened, a nobler kind of self-love. The distorted love that loves only the puny spark, seen in our myopic vision and hates the authentic love – this is a kind of blindness that is foolish as it is wicked…” (Avraham Yitzchak Kook, ‘Sacred Lights’)
I love Fromm! he is one of my main Rebbes!
Nu, we give up our national rights and moshiach gallups up on his ass?
“[T]he restoration of human rights, as the recent example of the State of Israel proves, has been achieved so far only through the restoration or the establishment of national rights. The conception of human rights, based upon the assumed existence of a human being as such, broke down at the very moment when those who professed to believe in it were for the first time confronted with people who had indeed lost all other qualities and specific relationships — except that they were still human. The world found nothing sacred in the abstract nakedness of being human” (Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism).
I don’t think Fromm is saying give up Israel – he’s saying to all of us that Nationalism isn’t something to be proud of – its no different to English/German/American nationalism believing that there are the BEST in the world etc… Judaism isn’t merely about tribal identity – its about a spiritual responsibility to be fully human – to be the best you can be – to foster a deep love for your corner of the Universe – to love yourself, your brothers and sisters and ultimately the whole world. We shouldn’t stop at just loving Jews. ‘Israel’ as an ideology is over, the conceptual borders of what we think of as Israel must expand – we must realise that the whole world IS Israel – and then YES moshiach will gallup up on his ass! (just to note something I’ve been thinking of for a while – the State of Israel is very much like a White Ass – talked of in the Talmud – [see Chullin] something that is dangerous and you can’t really do anything with) so perhaps Moshiach – (universal peace and brotherhood) will come riding on the back of Israel giving up its limitted Nationalistic ideology.
Max, I am not as concerned about what Fromm was saying as I am about how his words are used.
Humanity, not the Jews, has divvied up the world into nations. The ultimate goal of Zionism is not that Jews should conquer other peoples, but rather the reintegration of the Jewish people in its native region and the wider world with all the national dignity it deserves. We do not advocate Jewish triumph over other nations, only the rediprocity of mutual national rights.
Last sentence above: “rediprocity,” should read “reciprocity.”
I’m a rootless cosmopolitan 😉
There is a big difference between “incest” and “cult” and realizing that values and improvement of the individual and society often start within one’s own family or national circle. Sure, while breathing the rarefied air of philosophical inquiry, it may seem like the ideal can be found in everybody looking out for everybody else without national identity. (John Lennon “Imagine”ed this scenario.) In reality, it often works best the opposite way, when people feed there families, then help their friends, their neighbors, their fellow citizens, working outward.
A great example that I read once had to do with Jews and the Soviet Union. Many early Jewish communists were idealists who saw great value in the breakdown of identity, nationalism, religion etc. and sought to create a new society focused on all people. What resulted, unfortunately, was a cruel, somewhat totalitarian society. Later, Jewish activists fighting not for everyone but for the Jewish refuseniks in the USSR helped to bring an end to that same controlling system. Turning inward and working toward your own group’s ideals can benefit everyone, while turning outward and erasing boundaries can have the opposite effect.
Fromm was a charlatan like most Jewish “intellectuals” outside the hard sciences.
The whole purpose of the Frankfurt School was to open European-derived societies to the immigration that would transform them and eventually detroy their founding ethnic group (perceived as competitors by Jews). To do this it was necessary to discredit European racial solidarity and commitment to tradition.
This was the basic purpose of the Institute of Social Research that was founded in Frankfurt, Germany, during the Weimar period by a Jewish millionaire but was closed down by the Nazis shortly after they took power.
Most of its staff emigrated to the United States and the institute reconstituted itself at UC Berkeley. The organization was headed by Max Horkheimer, and its most influential members were T.W. Adorno, Erich Fromm, and Herbert Marcuse, all of whom had strong Jewish identities.
Horkheimer made no secret of the partisan nature of the institute’s activities: “Research would be able here to transform itself directly into propaganda,” he wrote. (Italics in the original.)
Jews are anti-Western subversives as they have always been. Thats why Jews suck if your a European. They are not content to live amongst us, they must dominate and then destroy us.
Jews suck.
“your” should read “you’re”
“Fromm was a charlatan” T – I don’t mind you believing what you do about Jews – I don’t much like them myself – But Fromm, was a really lovely guy – Please read ‘The Art of Loving’ etc…
http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ…
Also – about Jews – I think you’ll find that unfortunately not very many Jews are ‘anti-Western subversives’ as you can see from some of the above statements – they are in fact exactly like you – they just want to be proud Jewish Nationalists in a purely Jewish Land and therefore a ‘Jew’ as much as a German wanted to be a Proud Nationalistic German – infact very few Jews are at all subversive – they would love nothing else than to keep the status quo, I think most would love to take a pill that would magically transform them into upper-middle-class Gentiles overnight. Those Jews who are subsersive – are the Jews that don’t fit into ‘being Jewish’ they don’t identify with the upper middle classes – or the ultra orthodox – so they don’t fit in – they are the ones who are subversive – (Mobius &) Fromm is a great example – but he doesn’t want to destroy you – just your stupid nationalistic and racial preoccupations.
“T – I don’t mind you believing what you do about Jews – I don’t much like them myself -”
OK, NOW can we call someone a self-hating Jew?
Really, Max, if your’e so alienated from your Judaism (I assume you are Jewish based on your link) to the point that you say such a thing to a blatant anti-Semite on a public forum, maybe it’s time you renounce whatever last connection you have to the Jewish people, intermarry, and be done with it. Do the alienation thing right.
If anyone thinks I’m being overly harsh here, let me know why.
Yes, J, I think you were being way too harsh. That nasty bit about how Max should start miscegenating was a vicious little stab.
Max didn’t say he wants to shtupp some shiksa or start race mixing with some shvartze, so why bring that up? I don’t think he is into racial pollution. He will remain true and loyal to the Jewish Race.
J said: “[Fromm] doesn’t want to destroy you – just your stupid nationalistic and racial preoccupations.”
OK, let’s make a deal. As soon as the rabidly racist and Zionist Jews (not all of you, of course, but much of your leadership) agree to renounce the anti-Gentilist hate speech of the barbaric Talmud (which antedates by centuries, I should think, any remotely comparable European racial writing) and Israel, all your other practices of indoctrinating your children in racial seperatism and anti-Gentilism maybe I will consider taking up your offer. Until then, I will consider it an insincere.
Remember it is always Jewish agression and hubris that spawns the reaction against you. We let you into our countries and you abuse us thoroughly. Those Jews that wish to simply be upper middle class imitation gentiles are always welcome to assimilate and become civilized. Its the rest of you with your barbaric superstitions and deep seated racial hatred of Gentiles that constitute one of the primary obstacles to peace in today’s world.
And don’t call me an anti-Semite if you expect me to consider you even semi-literate. I have enormous respect for the Canaanites (that introduced your primitive ancestors to the alphabet), the Babylonians (from whom you plagiarized much of your literature and culture), the Akkadians, and the Sumerians (from whom your pantheon derived before you got rid of Jaweh’s consort, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters. father, mother, grandparents and great grandparents).
It is merely jews that havn’t renounced their traditional racist hatred of Gentiles that I am opposed to, not all jews much less all semites.
Wow – I love Jews – (but i couldn’t eat a whole one – without lots of Chrrain! [wait for it…i’m gonna be philosophical] many Jews are like Gefita Fish! i.e. Boring, Bland and Lifeless!) wow Finally I’m a self hating Jew! just to clarify I’m not self hating – I love Me! and I love Judaism (for the most part) what I don’t much like is the culture of middleclass – mediocraty that it seems many Jews have become comfortable with. I don’t like Jewish Fascism, I don’t like this obsession with Land over people, with Symbols over reality, with Race? Anyone no matter what race can be Jewish! I dislike the way some Rabbi’s use the Torah as an excuse for promoting their own usually right wing political views – Yes so if that makes me a Self Hating Jew I AM!! Anyways – T is right to some extent – many Orthodox Jews have become in some parts Xenophobic and base it on tradition. But I believe that this xenophobia is based in part on the anti-Semitic experinces of Jews in Europe over the last thousand or so years. T – I think you’ll find that ‘the barbaric Talmud’ – is a photo of Jewish culter about 1800? years ago or so. And according to Rabbi Dr Johnathan Sacks – the Gentiles of that period were very different (virtually no morality whatsoever [think Rome]) compared to the general populous of Western Civilisation today. And therefore we must treat most people at least as semi-righteous Gentiles – of which Miamonides says – that a righteous Gentile is as Holy as the High Priest in the Holy of Holies. So T – the Chief Rabbi of The UK and the whole Commonwealth has publicly renounced ‘anti-Gentilist hate’ in his book – the ‘Dignity of Difference’ http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/o…
T – this isn’t a them and us situation – it’s about ideology! There is beauty in difference – but difference that accepts otherpeople. (I’ve got a hunch that if you looked into your own personal history – you’ll probably find out that you’ve got Jewish blood in you?) Why else would you feel so strongly about it?
& J – OMG!!! what kind trip are you on? I’m not alienated from Judaism but from Jews like you! Since when do you not have a discussion? Judaism is about open debate – dialogue sometimes with people you don’t agree with. You try and find common ground – to agree on somethings and disagree on others – Judaism & Life isn’t an all or nothing situation! There are parts of Judaism i really don’t like – their are other which I bloody well love – and there are Jews who I don’t particularly fancy and Jews who I absolutely LOVE! the same is too for most of life – things i love and things i don’t – people I like and people I don’t. The fundamental idea of ‘Holiness’ in modern Jewish thought -particularly Hassidism – is the idea of the intergration of the many in the ONE, to find room for others within you. (see Hechulzu in Ranat by the Rebbe Rashab) http://store.kehotonline.com/i…
To be open minded – to attempt to be objective. I don’t HAVE to like you just because you’re Jewish! – But i do have to love you – and in as much say – Hey! wotz up – I hope you’re feeling better soon.
Things aren’t all black and white – just because you marry out doesn’t mean your not welcome back – just because you say I DON’T LIKE JEWS MUCH MYSELF – doesn’t mean that I’m gonna eat a BLT sandwich on Pesach, and grow my foreskin back! – get real – lighten up!
What I admire about “T” is that his kind usually stick to Edgar Steele’s site and/or Stormfront. But “T” had decided to confront Jews head-on. Why he choose Jewschool is anybody’s guess. I’m assuming it has something to do with his belief he’ll have some support for his ideas. But I’m wrong, right?
Max:
“& J – OMG!!! what kind trip are you on? ”
An anti-Semite spews his hatred, and you answer that you don’t much like Jews yourself. What should I conclude?
“I’m not alienated from Judaism but from Jews like you! ”
Really. So why did you say “T – I don’t mind you believing what you do about Jews – I don’t much like them myself “?
“Since when do you not have a discussion? Judaism is about open debate – dialogue sometimes with people you don’t agree with. ”
I made my point, and then asked if anyone thought I was being too harsh. How is that not a discussion?
“You try and find common ground – to agree on somethings and disagree on others – Judaism & Life isn’t an all or nothing situation! ”
There’s not much common ground when someone like you feeds the anti-Semites as you did.
“and there are Jews who I don’t particularly fancy and Jews who I absolutely LOVE! ”
Not what you said earlier.
“To be open minded – to attempt to be objective. ”
Clearly, you feel you have a monopoly on those traits. How about starting with not contradicting yourself?
“lighten up!”
I don’t think so. People like you have done far too much damage in the past. I can understand your confusion and alienation, to a point, but when you assist an outright anti-Semite as you did, it’s time for a rethink. At the least, avoid making an ass of yourself in public while you figure things out.
“what I don’t much like is the culture of middleclass – mediocraty that it seems many Jews have become comfortable with. ”
We of the middle class look to you, our Promethean Superman, to open new vistas to us, and rescue us from our hard-working, tax-paying, child-rearing worthless existences. But I suspect that all your’e going to offer is the same old cliched Left-wing alienation and lip-service universalism.
One more thing…hopefully “T” won’t get banned. This could be the best thing that happened to Jewish blogs since last weeks Fisticuff between jew/school/licious.
J: An anti-Semite spews his hatred, and you answer that you don’t much like Jews yourself. What should I conclude?
M. “I’m not alienated from Judaism but from Jews like you! ”
J. Really. So why did you say “T – I don’t mind you believing what you do about Jews – I don’t much like them myself “?
M. Isn’t there a difference between Judaism and Jews like YOU?
J Quoting M.”Since when do you not have a discussion? Judaism is about open debate – dialogue sometimes with people you don’t agree with. ”
J:There’s not much common ground when someone like you feeds the anti-Semites as you did
M.- I’m not talking about YOU silly – I’m talking about discussing sh*t with ‘T’ “our local spewing anti-Semite” – I’m allowed to have a chat with anyone who’s got a brain – whatever they beleive about ‘JEWS’ – You know I don’t much like ‘Jews’ (like you) much myself.
M. “You try and find common ground – to agree on somethings and disagree on others – Judaism & Life isn’t an all or nothing situation! ”
J. There’s not much common ground when someone like you feeds the anti-Semites as you did.
M. Angain read above – Trying to find common ground with T not you – because I don’t much like Jews like you.
M. “and there are Jews who I don’t particularly fancy and Jews who I absolutely LOVE! ”
J. Not what you said earlier.
M. Well read closer! Well I did say why I don’t like Jews Like you -I love Me! and I love Judaism (for the most part) what I don’t much like is the culture of middleclass – mediocraty that it seems many Jews have become comfortable with. I don’t like Jewish Fascism, I don’t like this obsession with Land over people, with Symbols over reality, with Race? … I dislike the way some Rabbi’s use the Torah as an excuse for promoting their own usually right wing political views
continued…
M. And Jews I love: “But Fromm, was a really lovely guy …unfortunately not very many Jews are ‘anti-Western subversives’ …the ones who are subversive – (Mobius &) Fromm is a great example – but he doesn’t want to destroy you – just your stupid nationalistic and racial preoccupations.”
M. “To be open minded – to attempt to be objective. ”
J. Clearly, you feel you have a monopoly on those traits. How about starting with not contradicting yourself?
M. I’m not sure that I have really contradicted myself – please let me know where – maybe just just don’t understand what i’m trying to say? also [getting philosophical again] I don’t have a problem with contradicting myself – This is the thing about an open and objective mind – it means you are able to hold differing ideas in your one head – it’s an idea called Cognative Disonence.
J. “lighten up!” I don’t think so. People like you have done far too much damage in the past.
M. people ‘like’ me? – do you means self hating Jews? Read Rosensweig! I’m an individual !
J. I can understand your confusion and alienation, to a point,
M. really ? – you can? I don’t remember being confused – just not wanting to identify with Jewish Facists – or just plain stupid Jews – and therefore alienated from (NOT LIKING) Jews like you.
J. but when you assist an outright anti-Semite as you did, it’s time for a rethink.
M. assist? – because I said ‘Jews I don’t much like them myself?’ Do you know any Jews – or do you live in Kansas? I’m not saying come on T – lets go Jew Bashing! they smell of gefilta fish and have big noses – oh and are trying to take over the world! – I’d like to quote Mobius who said something like ‘I want to pry Judaism from the cold lifeless hand of the Jewish estabishment’ – I don’t like Jews how give T and some of his friend reasons to hate Jews – like being a narrow minded Jewish self inflicted victim.
J: At the least, avoid making an ass of yourself in public while you figure things out.
M. Making an ass of ourself is the sure best path to personal development – I love it! – But I don’t believe that I have done in this case.
M. “what I don’t much like is the culture of middleclass – mediocraty that it seems many Jews have become comfortable with. ”
J. We of the middle class look to you, our Promethean Superman, to open new vistas to us, and rescue us from our hard-working, tax-paying, child-rearing worthless existences. But I suspect that all your’e going to offer is the same old cliched Left-wing alienation and lip-service universalism
M. All I offer you is the Torah of Life – call is what you will – take a good read of the Prophets – Take a god look at Jewish ideas of the Messiah and the Messianic Era. – just because I believe in eternal Jewish values I’m now left ving! ?
Do i have to like every Jew? just because they are Jewish? – Do i have to agree with what all Jews say? do I have to like Jews who – perpetuate Jewish victimhood? Do i have to like Jews who think a piece of land in more important than Being Jewish? Do i have to Like Jews who – make me feel ashamed of being Jewish? Do i have to like Jews who are ignorant, Jews who are arrogant? Jews who are dishonest? Jews who teach hate? Jews who only care about what they Have and not who they Are? Do I have to like Jews who show little care for the world they live in? No I don’t – does that make me a self-hating Jew? No it doesn’t.
Do I have to live a righteous Jewish life? Yes I do! Do I have to be the best and kindest Jew I can be? Yes I do! Do I have to live according to the true teachings of the Torah? Yes I do! Do I have to be a lover of humanity? Yes I do! Do I have to be open minded? Yes I do? do I have to be honest and true to myself? Yes I do!
Do I have to love my fellow Jew? Yes I do! but it doesn’t mean I have to like what he/she is doing in the name of Jews!
Max,
You sound like an angry 16 year old. And that’s your meshugas. But you should know that “J” is one of the rare folks worth reading in Jew blogland. Balanced, bright and always supports his criticisms/comments with convincing info.
shtriemel – i think its just the way you’re reading me.
i gave up on this kvetch like 5 times, because, what’s the point? T has read a lot and can write pretty well. but you know what? if you open a book to find specific information, a specific narrative, that’s what you will find, even if 2 or 3 completely different narratives are staring you in the face.
a while ago i decided that i can only engage in a conversation with someone who answers yes to the statement “within the construct of nationalism, jews deserve a state the same as any other ethnic group does.” anyone who says no is not being fair, just. and thus, is just going to piss me off needlessly, i know those people exist, but i am not going to expend breath and synapse firings on them.
it is interesting that he came here to spew, and did so in a semi-mellow, smarmy way. it tells me he takes a lot of jewish constructs seriously, has a respect for them. you have to think how gutwrenchingly difficult it is for some intelligent non-jews to process “the jews”, whatever that is. especially if they are xian, every one of their prayers is basically a jewish prayer, with “in the name of the father, and of the son…” appended to it.
they see that “the jews” are ridiculously overepresented in academic, scientific, business endeavors… they respect and envy it (T lays off jews in hard sciences), and hate to compete against it… hey T, no one likes to compete. “the jews” won’t compete if they don’t have to either, they will use nepotism or exclusionary practices or buddy up with the biggest bully on the block, just as nigerians and italians and panamanians and anyone else does.
i am also always awed at how many jews take jewish constructs seriously. i mean, moschiach? are you kidding me? are you waiting for some (white) dude to come, do you have a pager ready to get the call? or like max are you waiting for universal brother and sisterhood? if so i think maybe you haven’t ever traveled outside of nyc, or the nyc-israel circuit. and had blinders on in both spots.
scarce resources, many evolved (?) apes competing for them. y punto.
also, “fromm was a charlatan”. give me a break. i’m going to stop now.
beto wrote: “a while ago i decided that i can only engage in a conversation with someone who answers yes to the statement “within the construct of nationalism, jews deserve a state the same as any other ethnic group does.” anyone who says no is not being fair, just. and thus, is just going to piss me off needlessly, i know those people exist, but i am not going to expend breath and synapse firings on them. “
What about people who say that there is no such thing as a “right” to an ethnic/religious nationalist state for anyone ?
But John, that is exactly the point, and I’ll doubt you get an answer…
All conflicts in the world, when you strip them from their veils of ignorance (patriotism; ‘my God is better’ etc.) boil down to the struggle between the consciousness that made us the most successful predator, otherwise called the triple F mechanism (‘Fear, Fight, Flight) and the renewed awareness of interconnectedness. The story line might change, in fact it is stunningly creative and at the same time ruthlessly fertile in reinventing why this version is better/truer/holier than that; why these people are more worthy than those; why his right is more important than hers. But ultimately it is a dying breed of vision – note that, splendidly, NOT because it is more wrong or right than Oneness, but because it has to cease in order for us to continue living (i.e. M L King: “We must learn to live together as brothers, or we’ll perish together as foos…â€). But you’ll have any kind of response, ranging from derision through indignity onto outrage, suggesting to someone who is scared from the ‘other’ and fooled by the insanity of ‘the Me & the Mine’ that existential decisions based on belonging to a particular group or creed are outdated. The irony of course, as pointed out by MaxKohanzad, is that Jewish Fascism is as foul as any. The fact it does not have concentration camps as yet under its belly to prove it does separate it from the rest of the madness by degree, but not by essence. And some of the activities perpetrated by its adherents are a good indication that small minds and closed hearts are not stamped with flags.
What about people who say that there is no such thing as a “right” to an ethnic/religious nationalist state for anyone ?
Such people are incorrect. Such people are in a position to become correct, by convincing the United Nations to change its Charter. I hear it is in NYC. A short subway ride!
But John, that is exactly the point, and I’ll doubt you get an answer…
Why are you afraid of the truth, Komai?
What about people who say that there is no such thing as a “right” to an ethnic/religious nationalist state for anyone ?
i don’t know, i might agree with them, philosophically. but that’s weedsmoke. what we got is what we got. nations, flags, anthems. so within that construct, i believe that what i said stands. it works for me, at least.