How Christian of You!

I was thinking the other day, always a dangerous thing to do. Even though I look pretty Jewish (the big yamulka on my head is a big clue) I’ve still been told a few times when I do something nice that it’s very Christian of me. Of course the people who told me that immediately turned red and started flustering “I mean, eh, um, nice, not that Jews aren’t nice, um, I love Jews, some of my best friends are Jewish, I’ve seen every Seinfeld episode….” But isn’t it nice that Christians define a religious person as someone who is charitable? Being kind is what gets you called “Christian”. For some reason that warmed my heart. Why can’t we value kindness like they do?
But danger be damned, I kept thinking. Is there some word we Jews would use to describe such a person? Of course! “Mensch” Someone who acts uprightly and kindly is called a “Mensch” or if he is exceptional, “A Real Mensch”. Mensch, of course, is Yiddish for “human being”. So while Christians identify kindness as a function of their religion we Jews see it as a defining characteristic of humanity. It seems to be an even more basic aspect of existence.
You don’t act kindly and decently? You’re not just irreligious, you aren’t even human.

71 thoughts on “How Christian of You!

  1. Good post! I thought about that, too, how it’s frustrating that “Christian” is automatically considered kind or moral. So good point about the mensch thing, because I hadn’t thought of that.

  2. It’s funny because Jews are the most charitable religious/ethnic group in the country. Look at who donated the most money last year for tsunami relief. I’m pretty sure it was UJC.

  3. I can’t say Matt’s comment is verifiably accurate, though I do not deny the historical generosity of the Jewish community. As a Christian, I just wanted to add the observation that a Christian is not defined by what they do. A Christian is simply one who has decided to follow Jesus, revering Him as their Lord and Savior. It is Christ (or more generally – God) Himself who is defined by those attributes… and much more. When one tries to live as Christ teaches, they will every now and then produce something recognizable as similar in nature. In the end, however, no one enters God’s presence on the basis of merit alone… hence, Christ and his work of redemption on the cross – John 3:16.

  4. i randomly got to your blog…while using google, i got curious by the URL. anyway, for my comment:
    1. in the days of the disengagement, some used the word “yehudi” (jewish/jew) as “humane” (when the settlers yelled at the policemen and the soldiers who came to evict them “you are not jews”, “what you’re doing is not jewish”)
    so here’s a connection that was made between religion and characteristic (not very nice example, i say…)
    2. (…and another word for “nice”)
    some religious jews in israel (mostly the female, i guess), use the hebrew word “tzadik/a” for a nice person
    (“tzadik” is almost similar to “saint”-noah is an example for a “tzadik”)

  5. Greg in your opinion, based on the bible, which is a flawed document, nobody reaches heaven without accepting the big J. The bible also talks of different levels of hell, and not entering without proving one faith through works.

  6. the notion of charity is a greek word that doesnt have any basis in judaism. Jews don’t believe in charity. Jews believe in justice, or “tzedek”. the work “tzedakah” comes from the word tzedek. So the idea is its not just a “nice” thing to do, its an obligation that must be carried out.

  7. How Yiddish-ccentric:
    While Yiddish is no doubt dear to my heart (I, after all, am my zaider’s shey-ne-madeleh), I think it is important to acknowledge that the term “mench” is particular to the Ashkenazim. In attributing to it a universalising power (in the Jewish world, that is) to describe goodness, virtue, etc, we leave out the experience of the ‘other’ Jew, the non-ashkenazim.
    I’m not just being pretentious for the sake of it. I made the above point to illustrate a general problem I have with comparing Christian norms with Jewish norms. Being Christian is attributed to “goodness” because, historically speaking, it refers to being a believer, being close to god, obeying god and by extension being a good person. There are not many other ways to be a Christian. The equivalent, “how Jewish of you,” ignores the multiple other identities attributed with one’s Jewishness – ie. National, intellectual, cultural, historically, which are not directly connected with being “good”. It just doesn’t work….
    I like the tzadik suggestion – though it eliminates non-hebrew (or Yiddish) speakers. I guess this simply highlights the lack of universality of Judaism. Judaism is so plural, so diverse, and I think that any adjective that associates “goodness” and “being Jewish” will miss the diversity.
    Finally any suggestions that Jews have a monopoly on ‘being good Christians’ misses the Quakers – who have a great track record!!!

  8. zac: Parts of the bible are untrue, because the bible contradicts itself, and certain and parts of it advocate things that are immoral, slavery, infanticide, kidnapping of women, etc…..

  9. I came back to correct a little typo of vast significance. My last statement is misleading and should read “no one enters God’s presence on the basis of merit AT ALL” (Eph 2:8). Dameocrat – I must first state the scriptures are flawless and noncontradictory, though interpretations of them can be. This can only be confirmed by serious study of God’s Word, though I may be able to answer a few of your objections. While it is true that faith is demonstrated by good works, justification (salvation) is based on the work of Christ alone. Not sure if there are different levels of hell, but in the end it’s all the same – separation from God.

  10. A great resource for understanding the reasons why Christianity fails to address the core issues of Moshiach can be found at JewsForJudaism.com
    While I respect the rights of all people to believe what they like, and to make those views known, I would like to suggest that it is at least impolite and at most deeply condesending / offensive to come onto a Jewish website and prostelatize (sp?) for Christianity and suggest that the rest of us are going to hell.
    I am a secular Jew (by choice) , but if we’re going to do this lets to it right. In particular read http://jewsforjudaism.com/jews

  11. AC – I’m not sure why people get all riled up about perceived “missionaries”, I mean nobody is susceptible to other people’s belief systems unless they want to be.. So what’s the big deal, I say the more the merrier

  12. Funny I am Christian-Jew and I can not recall anyone ever saying “How Christian of you” to me. My mother has, however, called me a mensch a number of times – possibly even other Jewish friends have done so but I can not recall specifics right now. In any event the difference alluded by 13 kevetches is probably due at least in part to the stress Jesus placed on his ethical teachings and the good Samaritan parable in particular. In that parable Jesus clearly elevated generous and kind conduct above dogmatic understanding as the Samaritans were clearly heretics in the context of first century Judaism while the priests who passed by rightfully occupied Mosers’ seat as affirmed by Jesus. Despite Jesus’ affirmance of the priestly class and Jewish theology of the first century over that of the Samaritans(woman-at-the -well parable), his hero is the good samaritan who acts righteously rather than the pious passers by. Whether we like it or not Jesus’ teachings do foreclose a seamless Judeo-Christian eithcal weave. I know the upsets many Messianics and some Christians but I can not personally avoid it. G-d bless.

  13. Again Greg that is your opinion. You aren’t God. There is no reason to accept your word for it, particularly in light of common sense. There are a number of irresolvable contraditions, and completely immoral acts advocated in the
    bible such as.
    stalking, raping, kidnapping, infanticide and forced marriage like this number in judges
    (Judges 21:10-24 NLT)
    So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.
    The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”
    Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'” So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

  14. dameocrat
    i followed the link you posted:
    i find it interesting that mostly all of the contradictions are in the new testament.
    I would like to stress the fact that the new testament is not part of the Tanach or was it ever intended to be.
    It’s inaccuracy is easily proved and by using the Torah as it’s claim to truth, it actually refutes and defeats itself.
    Why anyone would claim a virgin birth, a man-god and the permission to disolve the laws of the Torah based on the new testament really puzzles me.
    But, your questioning of incidents of seemingly heartless acts in the Tanach in no way can be used as a refutation.
    Bnei Yisrael has a mission in this world and at that stage of it’s history, the destruction of the idolizing nations dwelling in the land was on a spiritual as well as physical level.
    As the Torah states, the dwellers of the land were a stumbling block for the holy nation.
    As well, you quoted out of context in order to cast the above story in the worst possible way.
    I guess you must be well versed to quote what you did, please read it in full context.

  15. just one q for the missionaries out there. specifically for the ones who claim the original new testament was originally written in hebrew and who use the “hebrew matthew” as some sort of proof (which by the way, the hebrew matthew states that jesus was not “the” messiah and that there was no virgin birth, text available upon request) that jesus never said to follow the torah or pharisees(which he does in the greek version).
    Matt.27:46,50: “And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?” that is to say, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” …Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.”
    why is the verse translated within the verse?

    In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. Matthew 1:6-16 and Luke 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.

  17. That’s nice AC, but there is nothing that can be done to make me think well of a story involving murdering infants, or the stalking and forced marriage/rape. Not even putting it in context. In addition it actually refects better on Jews if I look at it as a story, like the Trojan war. Also why did god make the idolizing nations and put them there in the first place and why couldn’t he have found or created some place else for jews to live besides some place where other people lived. He is god. If he gave them that land why the heck did he make them fight for it.
    There isn’t anymore archaeological evidence for this event is non existent. In fact archaelogy shows the Canaanites were probably the ancestors of the Israelites.
    I find biblical literalism perverse, not religion in and of itself. I wasn’t really raised in a fundy religion, but over the years it has turned fundy, and I have jumped ship.
    As we all know the settlers derive much of their justification for the treatement of the Palestinians from these passages, and the Taliban derived justification for their treatement of Women from Islam. Furthermore Christians persecuted Jews because of antijewish passages in Mathew and John. The africaaners and the Confederates both used the bible to justify slavery and segregation. I see much evidence that religion is used to justify immorality, rather than prop up morality.

  18. Correction: The archaelogical evidence for the conquering of canaan is nonexistent/
    One more thought. Note from AC’s responce, how there is creeping biblical literalism in Judaism too. I am willing to bet up till the fundy takeover in the 80s there was no requirement that we believe every word of this in Judaism either.
    biblical literalism is an antimodern curse on modern society, probably encouraged because it serves neoliberals to have female work devalued, and it forces the cost of raising children and taking care of the elderly and they like on their unpaid labors. Most of it is targeted at keeping us females in a state of second class citizenship.
    you won’t find any place on this earth where a high population are biblical literalists and where women have advanced very far.

  19. TomC said –
    “While I respect the rights of all people to believe what they like, and to make those views known, I would like to suggest that it is at least impolite and at most deeply condesending / offensive to come onto a Jewish website and prostelatize (sp?) for Christianity and suggest that the rest of us are going to hell.”
    One, my opening observations were simply to clarify the Christian position as misrepresented in this column. Two, I offered a change of venue – apparently no one accepted. Three – you’re right in that I agree you are in no condition to enter the presence of a righteous God, that Christ is God’s ordained answer to that dilemma, and that I think it would be great if you came to that realization…
    BUT –
    Dameocrat is correct in that you shouldn’t take MY word for it. I have my opinion on scripture, but can only emphasize a closer examination of the text in order to let it prove itself. As I said last time, apparent inconsistencies are only read into the text through misinterpretation. Dameocrat brought Judges 21 to bear. God did ordain the righteous slaughter of many “wicked” peoples. Why? This was a measure towards maintaining the purity and the obedient hearts of His people. Look again, though. Nowhere does God ever condone immoral behavior or, as blasphemously suggested, advocate it.
    You want truth? The scriptures – the very revelation of the God of the Jews and of the world – is it. Take it or leave it. Go on and continue in ignorant scoffing. I only suggest making an objective appraisal of Christ’s claims. That’s common sense to me.
    I’m done. Sorry for the mess Ichayim. Arguing further has a tedious outlook to it. You’re welcome to come by my blog as previously mentioned if you’re serious about having your questions/objections discussed.

  20. Greg: Babies are wicked peoples? How so? Hitler thought Jews were wicked people too, right down to their little kids!
    Also how did that story justify kidnapping and forced marriage of those women.

  21. That last statement wasn’t directed at you Ichayim, but likewise – all are welcome.
    (Ooooo… Sorry, but I must answer this –
    I don’t call babies “wicked”, but no human is innocent. If so, there’s no reason to say we shouldn’t be out killing babies to ensure their salvation is there? I can’t and won’t say God condoned that marriage issue either. The text made no effort at justifying the Israelites behavior, did it? Maybe that means God’s chosen ones here made up their own interpretation of Jewish custom. The old testament is a long, vivid picture of the Israelites screwing up over and over again (reminds me of… me). But God was faithful to His covenant by promising the Messiah. I believe that is Jesus. The last answer is an emphatic NO. By the way, I don’t advocate taking the whole Bible literally as you suggest because of the obvious use of symbolism in many places. I do advocate taking it seriously.)

  22. Greg “But God was faithful to His covenant by promising the Messiah”
    The covenant says nothing of a messiah.
    How apt this weeks parasha is Lech Lecha.
    In that day HaShem made a covenant with Abram, saying: ‘Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates;
    the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,
    and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,
    and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.’
    1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, HaShem appeared to Abram, and said unto him: ‘I am G-d Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.
    2 And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.’
    3 And Abram fell on his face; and G-d talked with him, saying:
    4 ‘As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.
    5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.
    6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
    7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a G-d unto thee and to thy seed after thee.
    8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d.’
    9 And G-d said unto Abraham: ‘And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.
    10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised.
    11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you.
    12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed.
    13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

  23. maybe i missed some jesus hints here greg?
    maybe if i take the 33 letter from the last verse multiply it to the 3rd power and then choose every alternating letter it will spell yeshu backwards.

  24. C/O : http://www.familyrestorationma
    Tishrei – Articles From The Original Journal
    November 2004
    Number 72. The Divinity of Yeshua our Lord in Biblical Context
    by Joseph Shulam
    The problem of understanding the relationship of God and the Messiah has plagued the Christian world since the second century. And, I personally have suffered greatly as a result of controversy around this subject. I have been accused by some leaders in the Christian community of not believing that Yeshua is divine. However, all my believing life, since September 2nd 1962, I have always believed in the divinity of Yeshua, Son of God, and my Lord. I have always wanted to understand the Biblical truths that are in the New Testament from the Jewish point of view in the first century. It is apparent to me that a lot of the arguments in Christianity about the Trinity and Deity and Divinity are artificial. They started from a period when the Church had to fight against heresy that was coming up as a result of political aspirations in the context of the Church and the Roman Empire. The Church councils hold no authority with me, both as a Jew and as a follower of Yeshua. The only authority for me is the whole Bible as it was seen, to the best of my knowledge, in the context of the first century A. D. I do not feel any obligation to Christian tradition. As for the Jewish tradition, which includes the Rabbibnical sources, I also feel no obligation as an authoritative source from God. However, I do feel that if it was a question of choice between two traditions, I would choose my own (Jewish) tradition every time.
    Some hermeneutic and exegetical principles which have guided me through my study and understanding of the Word of God:
    a. The clear statements of God’s word take precedence over passages which are hard to understand, or passages which require extensive manipulation to explain.
    b. The teaching of the majority of the passages takes precedence over teachings reported in some obscure passages.
    c. The position of the Torah takes precedence over the latter teachings.
    d. The narrative flow of passages in the New Testament is more revealing than human explanations of what these passages would mean within the Christian world and traditions.
    Here are some excerpts from a statement of Faith that I wrote for myself on October 24th 1988:
    2. Yeshua is the Son of God, eternally begotten of the FATHER. (Luke 3:22, Proverbs 30:4, Acts 8:37…)
    a. He was borne by Mary who conceived Him from the Holy Spirit.
    b. Yeshua was in God before the beginning of the world. (John 8:58, Colossians 1:17, John 1:10). In the course of Christian history a great debate, on the issue of the nature of the Messiah before the creation of the world, has rent the camp. I believe that the Messiah has always been the LORD, and there was never a time in which the concept of God has not included the concept of a messianic saviour for all mankind.
    c. Yeshua in His divine nature was not created, and was from eternity a manifestation in the nature and character of the Father. (It should be noted that throughout this document I will use the convention of “LORD” to denote the Hebrew Tetragramaton).
    d. Yeshua is One with the “LORD” and equal to Him in character, in Mission, in Nature, in Purpose, in Intention and Authority. This is so because of the Nature of God as the Sender and Yeshua as the “Sent one”. There is total equality between the “LORD” and Yeshua and at the same time there is also a hierarchy in that the “LORD” is called “Father”, and Yeshua is called “Son”. (Please see, John 14:28) The same hierarchy is seen in the fact that Yeshua voluntarily put on flesh. “God is a Spirit” and Yeshua has to be acknowledged as Flesh. (See Philippians 2:6-11, 1 John 4:1-2) This hierarchy is clear from the mission of Yeshua as it is described in John 6:38, “For I came down from Heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.” From the above verse we see that Yeshua and the Father must have a relationship of “Sender” – “Sent”, and Yeshua is not both the “sender” and the “sent” at the same time.
    e. Even in the Flesh Yeshua retained that special relationship with the “LORD” which made him equal to God (Colossians 2:9). However, that Equality does not in any way change the Oneness of the “LORD”, and does not alter the “UNITY” of God. The “ONE LORD” is such a cardinal teaching of the TANAACH and of Judaism that I can not ever see myself teaching or even hinting at any more than one God. The New Testament writers all re-affirm in their writings the “ONE LORD” who is God of both the Jews and the Gentiles. This “ONE LORD” has chosen to reveal Himself to the world through Yeshua “his only begotten son” (Hebrews 1:1). This Son is the picture of his Father, the equal of his Father. The Son is also called the “Word of God” which is God. This passage of Scripture from John 1:1 is to be understood in the light of the Targum which is the agency through which the Father created the whole world, and therefore identified with the Messiah.
    f. When all of the above is taken into account it ought to be evident that the Father and the Son and the Spirit of God are all included in the Biblical concept of God. The particular relationship between the Father, Son and Spirit are hard to define at times, and at times their role and function interchange. What the Father does is attributed to the Son, and at times to the Spirit, and all possible combinations are to be found in the Scriptures. The reason for what seems to be “confusion” is embedded in the very nature of the LORD who is “all” in “all”:
    1. The word “Elohim” and its use in the Old Testament: There is a general use of Elohim in reference to God Himself (Exodus 18:11, Psalm 82:6). Both Angels and men are called “Elohim” in special circumstances (Exodus 4:16, Exodus 7:1, Judges 13:22, Psalm 8:5). We see that the word “Elohim can have a rather broad semantic field: that under some circumstances it can refer to men, angels, or tasks which are filled by men of God. That is to say, from a Torah point of view it would not be wrong to call a person to whom the LORD gave His authority, “Elohim”
    2. Yeshua is “Elohim” on these bases:
    a. Yeshua has the power to forgive sins (Luke 7:47-49, Mark 2:5,7, Luke 5:20-24, John 5:20-26).
    b. Yeshua has the power to control powers of nature (Mark 4:35-41).
    c. Yeshua can see into people’s hearts and know things that have not been known to others (John 4:29).
    d. Isaiah alludes to the Messiah, giving him one of His titles “a mighty God” (Isaiah 9:6)
    . e. Thomas exclaimed, “My Lord and my God!” (John 20:28).
    f. There are numerous places in the New Testament and in Jewish literature which quote Old Testament passages which in their context refer to God. These passages have a Messianic context and are attributed to Yeshua (Jeremiah 23:5-6, Psalms 45:6, 97:7, 102:25,26, these passages from Psalms being quoted in Hebrews 1).
    3. The divinity of the Messiah is attested in Jewish sources:
    a. “R. Sh’muel bar Nahmani said in the name of R. Yohanan: “Three are called by the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, and they are: the righteous, the Messiah, and Jerusalem…” (B.Bab.Bath.75b)
    b. “What is the name of King Messiah? R. Abba bar Kahana said: ‘Lord is his name, for it is written, I will raise unto David a righteous Shoot… In his days Judah shall be saved… And this is the name whereby he shall be called: The Lord our righteousness… In the house of R.Yannai they said: ‘Yinnon is his name, for it is written: ‘May his name be continued (yinon) as long as the sun’ (Psalm 72:17).” Lam.Raba 1:51, p.36, ad Lam. 1:16.
    c. “R. Shim’on ben Laqish explained: ‘and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the water (Genesis 1:2) – this is the spirit of King Messiah, as it is written, ‘And the spirit of the Lord will rest upon him’ Isaiah 11:2.” Gen.Raba 2:4.
    d. In Gen.Raba ch.8, we hear that the Arch-Angels could not distinguish between the original Adam, who was the Messiah, and God himself and they got mixed up and fell down on their faces worshiping the Messiah.
    4. The divinity of Yeshua the Messiah is not contradictory to the Oneness of God. A messenger is equal to the sender. A part can be equal to the whole (consider a cup of sea water and the whole ocean). Midrash Mekilta on Exodus 14:31 says: “And they believed in God and Moses His servant.”
    5. The New Testament teaches that there is One God (Mark 12:32, Romans 3:30, 1 Corinthians 8:6, Galatians 3:20, Ephesians 4:6, 1 Timothy 2:5, James 2:19).
    6. Yeshua is never called “our Father” in the New Testament although he is called “Everlasting father” in Isaiah 9:6. In the New Testament, Yeshua always appears beside the Father or with the Father. This does not compromise the dual truth that Yeshua is divine, having the nature, character, mission and capacity of God in every respect, and Yeshua is God manifested in human form. Paul constantly demonstrates this principle (Romans 1:7, 2 Thessalonians 1:1, 2:16, Philemon 1:3).
    7. There is both equality and hierarchy between Yeshua and the Father. (John 10:24, 14:28, 1 Corinthians 11:3). The subordination of a faithful messenger has a major part in the role of the Messiah and his Father. In the Book of Revelation Yeshua will finally hand the kingdom back to the Father.
    8. There are unique characteristics of God which appear in Yeshua and which make Him equal to God and a part of the very nature of God and man (Phillipians 2:6-11, Hebrews 5:8, Colossians 1:19, 2:9).
    9. Therefore, the Scriptures say the following about Yeshua:
    a. Yeshua was preexistent to the creation of the world, and in fact took part in this creation as the Word of God. “Before Abraham I was…
    b. Yeshua was with then Father before he became man (Philippians 2:6-11).
    c. There is no name in heaven or on earth by which men might be saved except that of Yeshua our Lord (Acts 4:12, John 14:6).
    d. Yeshua’s sacrifice is the only way available from God for the atonement of sins for both Jews and Gentiles.
    e. In an indirect way, and through heavy Greek philosophical terms, John 1:1 does allude to Yeshua as the Word of God which is God, indicating that Yeshua is God (Elohim) in a similar sense as this term is used in the Old Testament.
    10. The practical applications of this teaching are:
    a. We must make it clear to all, by emphasis and teaching that we believe in One God, the only God (Isaiah 45:5-7). This is the Biblical emphasis throughout both Old and New Testament. No other emphasis needs to be imported and anything less than the teaching on the oneness of God will be confusing and disruptive to our witness.
    b. We must make it clear through Jewish literature and the prayer book that Yeshua is the Messiah and Son of God, equal in his task and nature to the full will and council of God Himself. This on the basis of “a messenger who is equal to his sender”.
    c. Let us put Yeshua as our Lord and general over our daily life and keep His commandments in place of a lot of platitudes about our faith and saved status.
    d. Let us strive to understand more of God’s nature and give attention to the teachings of Yeshua about Himself and His relationship to the Father and the whole Church.
    Yeshua is the Divine Son of God and the Lord of my life whom I strive to serve every day in every way because only in Him do I find eternal life now.
    (Reprinted from Tishrei Vol 4 No 2, Son of Man/Son of God, Spring 1996)
    ———————– ———————– ———————– ———–

  25. AC, when we breathe our last breath on this earth and we are face to face with eternity and our Judgment day,
    I wonder how we will all feel on that day?
    Through Jesus, I have peace and joy and a true connection with God, who without Him I can’t honestly say I would ever know God…
    So yeah, it hurts when I come across, even randomly, people such as yourself, who seems to find joy in spewing any kind of maliciousness or vile or ridicule or mocking words against the Lamb of God…
    I am praying that even though you may feel however you may feel right now, that sometime before you leave this earth, you repent of your sins and come to the Lord…that He might say “Well done, good and faithful servant” and not “Depart from Me, for I never knew you”…

  26. I have been reading through these post and I think I’d like to say something now. My name is Jonathan and I’m a messianic Jew. All of you have good arguments. All of you have made some wonderful points, but you have also tried to stress points that just aren’t true. Yes I agree with the fact that the bible is a flawed document. Why? Because Human hands put it together. People make mistakes. Does it surprise me that most mistakes seem to be in the new testament? Not at all. The new testiment was not published untill a time when men were so evil that they would change it themselves to better suit their needs. The torah has been around in original forms a lot longer. We couldn’t change all those originals now could we? The church very well could have changed around the new testament. I mean we are talking about the kind of church that back then was so arrogent as to go as far as to say they didn’t want to be associated with the Jews so they worshiped instead on Sunday , day of the sun god, instead of Saturday.
    Now what I don’t agree with is all this fuss about Yeshua. I’d love to stress the point that the torah does point to a messiah, and that Yeshua did fufill the requirements. I’d also like to stress to the christians here that Yeshua (jesus) was for the Torah. He never one contradicted Torah, and he did not abolish it in any way shape or form. If you are going to claim him as messiah, then you better be prepared to claim the messiah the bible speaks of, and not your own made up view of him. That’s why jews have such a hard time accepting him! You keep claiming and un-kosher messiah! Yeshua didn’t eat pig! nor did he celebrate on Sunday! And he didn’t come to abloish the law or the prophets! “Don’t think that I have come to ablolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the torah – not until everything that must happen has happened.” Matthew 5:17-18. Hello! Last time I checked heaven and earth are still here…. And for those of you who want to say, but Paul said…. what makes you think even for a moment that paul had more authority than Yeshua? Saying that the torah is gone would be like saying I could go have sex with my sister and it would be ok. The law that says I can’t was part of Torah. You can’t take parts of the Torah out. It’s either all still valid, or it is all gone. Oh, and the 10 comandments are Torah also. All laws in Torah refer back to one of those ten. The 10 are just a quick Summary of all the others.
    Ok, now that I’ve yelled at my christian brothers a little I’d like to yell at my Jewish brothers now. Yes, Torah does support the messiah. It points right at him! Also, no, I don’t believe that the Jews are going to hell for not believing in Yeshua. Yeshua wasn’t on earth when Israel was wondering through the wilderness. So what happened to them? Did they all go to hell cause they didn’t except christ? no! They made it to heaven because they believed in the father, or in actuallity, The Messiah, because the Messiah was God. When Yeshua came to earth and said the only way to the father was through him, it was because he was part of the father! to deniy him was to deniy God himself. So many Jews act like he did bad things while he was on earth. As if he was anti-Torah, when he wasn’t! Even if he wasn’t the Messiah, which I’m not saying he wasn’t becuase the bible and my heart tell me he was, he was still one of the greatest Torah teachers to ever live on this planet. Who cares what the other books say for him or against him, look at what he actually said and did! Now is that not the signs of the messiah?
    In the end what it really boils down to is that Judah really needs to accept their brother Ephriam and teach them the things they are missing about Torah, and Christains, or “The Church” as they call themselves needs to stop trying to be separate from God’s plans and accept the fact that they are part of Israel and stop making their own rules! Both groups need eachother. There is so much both of you have in error because you don’t have what the other has. So your truths have been twisted because you don’t have the full truth! Jews have the Torah, but the don’t fully understand it without messiah, and Christians have the Messiah, but they don’t understand him because they lack Torah! Wow, I’ve said a lot for now. I guess I’ll just wait for some feedback before I say anymore…

  27. I guess you messianics are missing my points.
    a reference in the Tanach or the Oral Law to a mashiach does not have to point to any one person, especially jesus.
    many times the rabbis said so-and-so could have been mashiach but such-and-such happened (eg. Hezkiyah ha-melech)
    you guys want to find proofs so bad that jesus was the mashiach that you will interpret any reference of a mashiach to him.
    we actually have a tradition of 2 mashiach by the way.
    we have a tradition of Eliyahu Ha-Navi.
    We do not believe that a mashiach is in ANY WAY part of G-d.
    as I said before any such idea would (as if possible) detract from the holiness (kedusha-separation from mundane or physicality) of G-d. Any idea of a woman impregnated by G-d would (as if possible) do the same.
    Not only do you ppl attempt to do this, but you replace references to G-d himself in the Torah with jesus.
    “The Messiah, because the Messiah was God. When Yeshua came to earth and said the only way to the father was through him, it was because he was part of the father! to deniy him was to deniy God himself. ”
    that’s a ridiculous idea yhonatan, you’re saying jesus is G-d? and you’re saying this is supported in the Tanach? All of the early apostles do not mention this idea or a “virgin birth” , they do not claim jesus to be the messiah nor that he came to preach to any other than the “lost sheep of Israel” the ones straying from Torah. The early apostles were the only ones to have actually met him. proggresively through the new testament he becomes more and more of a diety until finally he becomes G-d himself.
    do you notice this yhonatan? are you open-minded enough to check for yourself?
    “Judah really needs to accept their brother Ephriam”
    who told you Ephraim means xtians? maybe you can say Judah and Ephraim refered to in Tanach means sefardim and ashkenaz like my Rabbi, Avigdor Miller A’H did, but Ephraim does not speak of xtians.
    on a side note yhonatan, you have an interesting position on xtianity. you wear tefilin? keep shabbat? accept the oral torah?
    keep kosher? have an orthodox marriage? laws of family purity?
    sukkot? pesach?
    do you understand the severity of your position? how do you pick which books of the new testament to accept and which to reject?
    which verses to accept and which to reject?
    most books of the nt conflict themselves and each other and especially the Torah.

  28. “d. Yeshua’s sacrifice is the only way available from God for the atonement of sins for both Jews and Gentiles.”
    what about yom kippur?(mentioned in the Torah)
    what about repentance?(mentioned in the Torah)
    I’ll bring back yonatan’s qoute
    “… until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the torah…” Matthew 5:17-18.
    and as yonatan mentioned, the heavens and earth are still here.
    I guess jesus did not even believe your concept, should we?
    what would jesus do?

  29. Well said yhonatan. except for the claim you made “Yeshua is God” I do not believe that Yahushua HaMashiach is Elohim YHWH.
    Why in the book of Daniel does it say that the Son of Adam will come down as well as the Ancient of days and the son of Adam hands all things back to the Ancient of Days? How can the Father and the Son be one? Oneness being Echad not one in entity. But that’s just my thought on that.
    “… until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the torah…” Matthew 5:17-18.
    Yahushua said that guys how can he not have lived by it? The heavens and the earth are still here thus the torah is still alive and well. Yahushua taught torah and lived it. He is our perfect example of following the Torah.
    I do not follow the Oral Torah, because I do not believe the Oral Torah is the Torah, but commentaries-traditions of men.
    I observe the shabbat,
    Sukkot, Pesach, Unleavened Bread, Day of Atonement, Shavuot, Feast of Trumpets, YHWH’s MOEDIM.
    These are the appointed times of Yahweh, set-apart gatherings which you are to proclaim at their appointed times. (ISR Wayyiqra 23:4)
    YHWH said, If You love me keep MY commandments..

  30. how do you observe shabbat if you discredit the oral torah?
    do you sit in the dark on shabbat?
    do you eat cold food?
    “Lo tva’aru esh b’chol mosh’veichem”
    “you shall not ignite a fire in all of your dwellings”
    how about the law of not going out of your dwelling
    do you sit home all day?
    how about tefilin, how do you keep that mitzva? thats in the written law
    not following a enticer who strays you away from H-shem?
    these are all detailed laws, how do you keep them ahava?
    even if you are female, tefilin doesnt specify male or female in the written law.

  31. and why keep yom kippur if jesus already died for your sins?
    is that like a license to kill, steal ect…
    “jesus died for my sins your honor….”
    sure he did

  32. Hey, look I’m learning ok? I’m doing the best I can. I need to make TzitTziyots I know that.
    I don’t cook food on shabbat and hey whats wrong with cold food? I usually just eat salad on shabbat and whatever else and I am almost convinced that we are not supposd to leave our dwelling places on the sabbath day. As for Tefillin, I don;t believe the whole black box thing on your head and wrapped around the arms is what it says in the Torah but hey I could very well be wrong.
    “You shall bing them as a sign. on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets.
    between your eyes. ” I’ve always seen that as more a spiritual thing..
    Yom Kippur is an everlasting ordinace to be obeyed. Yahweh NEVER did away with His feast days when he brought HIS SON.
    The letter J is like 500 years old, so Jesus isn’t the name of the Mashiach of the Scriptures.
    Just Because He died for men’s sins doesn’t mean it is a license to sin, it’s a license to live.

  33. So you’re saying Eliyahu HaNavi was Messiah? He may have been annointed, but whatever. Why do the Rabbis right now say we are in Jacob’s trouble?

  34. Ephraiam:
    the northern tribes went after pagan gods.. they went all over why could they not have gone into Christianity, or anything else?
    Christianity: Has not Christianity embraced Paganism>? It’s a pagan religion. Which is clearly shown in the breaking of Torah.> Why now are so many people being called to Torah if it’s not a work of YHWH? He said in the latter days He’d bring them back. Most of the books of the NT are merely letters to certain churches, to torah believers. Written by Yehudim.

  35. im sorry ahava,
    its seems you have alot of searching left to do.
    maybe you should do it before you try to express your views as fact.
    theres nothing wrong with thinking and searching, just don’t do your pondering in public because it’s hard to go back on your own words.

  36. and by the way, you said you “need to make tzitzyot”
    but you feel that tefilin is “a spiritual thing”?
    you dont cook on Shabbat and you don’t leave the house?
    what if someone is sick and needs a hot food?
    or if a woman has to give birth and needs to go to the hospital?
    the Torah says someone who breaks Shabbat is liable for death penalty.
    what does one do?

  37. haha.. you’re so arrogant. May I ask you why? I’m seriously just earnestly seeking truth.
    Cooked food is actually very bad for the body. Deplete in enzymes that are essential for growth / rejuvenation of the cells.
    I know the torah says someone who breaks Shabbat is liable for the death penalty.
    I don’t work on the shabbat. I try to obey it.

  38. listen ahava,
    when you treat my Torah as a simple matter,
    and pollute the torah with idolatry and blasphemy (jesus)
    it bothers me greatly
    you act arrogantly to make your own Torah and your own religion,
    my point in the last post is that one cannot truly understand the written torah without the oral torah
    the rabbi’s explained that you can prepare hot food before Shabbat for Shabbat
    you can take a woman to the hospital on Shabbat if she cant get there by a goy driver,
    I am helping you find the truth of the Torah ahavah, if you want to know it.

  39. the torah was not given to gentiles
    the gentiles are obligated by the seven laws of noach and thats it, in fact a goy who keeps Shabbat is frowned upon by the Torah.
    “Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the L-RD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.” Exodus 31:16-17

  40. Hey.. Why are you sooo quick to accuse me? And why do you say I am treating the Torah as a simple matter, and polluting it with blasphemy and idolatry? Where do you get that from. You don’t know me, you don’t know my life.
    I have prepared hot food before shabbat, before sundown Friday and reheated it or used a crockpot before. That is besides the point.
    Where do you get the room to go off and accuse me of polluting the torah of YHWH?

  41. It seems to me you listen to Rambam over Moshe.
    Numb 15:15 (KJV) One ordinance [shall be both] for you of the congregation, and also for the stranger that sojourneth [with you], an ordinance for ever in your generations: as ye [are], so shall the stranger be before Yahweh.
    16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.
    Isai 56:6 (ASV) Also the foreigners that join themselves to Yahweh, to minister unto him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from profaning it, and holdeth fast my covenant;
    7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt-offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
    8 The Sovereign Yahweh, who gathereth the outcasts of Israel, saith, Yet will I gather [others] to him, besides his own that are gathered.

  42. you worship jesus who said to listen to the rabbis and the oral torah
    why dont you?
    and who says you can say or use G-d’s holy name as you do?
    the Kohen Gadol only did on Yom Kippur, why do you use it now?
    do you realize the severity of using and pronouncing G-d’s name?
    btw ahava,
    “16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you. ”
    refers to a ger tzedek, would you like to knwo the qualifications of a ger tzedek? or do u already know
    A Righteous Convert (ger tzedek)is a full convert to Judaism.
    c/o http://www.askmoses.com
    QUESTION #57 : (a) What is the diference between a “Ger Toshav,” a “Ger Tzedek” and a “Ger Ha-sha’ar” ? Which one of these corresponds to a “Noahide”? (b) Is the Ger Toshav and/or Ger Ha-sha’ar expected, commanded, encouraged or permitted to keep the Sabbath (and the kosher dietary laws)?
    > A. G., J.B.
    ANSWER : (a) A Ger Toshav (resident alien) is a special category of Noahide (a righteous Gentile) which is not available during the times of the Jewish exile. The Ger Toshav status is only available during a time when the 12 Jewish Tribes are ingathered and settled in their Biblically assigned territories. (In such times, the Yovel, or “Jubilee,” years are able to be observed by the Jews – see Lev. 25:8-13.) Under these conditions, which will not return until the Messianic Redemption, a Gentile who has settled as a resident in the Holy Land may appear before a Jewish court (Beis Din) and take an oath before the judges that he or she will observe the Seven Noahide Laws with proper intent and faith. The court then grants this Gentile the special status of “Ger Toshav,” which includes certain additional legal privileges.
    Since the time that the 10 northern Tribes of ancient Israel were exiled and lost, before the destruction of the First Temple, the Yovel years have not been able be observed, and it is not possible to grant the Ger Toshav status. It will only be possible to again observe the Yovel years and grant the Ger Toshav status after the Messiah comes and brings the True and Complete Redemption. This will be when the Messiah gathers all the Jews back to Israel, including the Ten Lost Tribes, and identifies the Tribe which each Jew belongs to. Then each Jewish Tribe will reside in the region assigned to it by G-d, as these regions are described in the Torah (see Num. 34:1-15, Deut. 33:22-23, 34:1-4). At that point, it will again be possible for a Gentile to become a Ger Toshav. Nowadays, Gentiles may on their own join the ranks of the “Chassidei Umos Ho’olom,” the Pious of the Nations, by observing the Seven Noahide Commandments as a directive given to them by G-d through His prophet Moses at Mount Sinai. With this committment in actual practice, a Gentile earns a place in the eternal World to Come.
    A “Ger Tzedek” is a righteous convert – a former Gentile who has become Jewish through conversion according to Torah Law under the oversight of an Orthodox Rabbi. A scriptural term for the righteous convert is “Ger Bi’Sharekha” – “stranger within your gates.” This conversion is available in the present era, but not after the Messianic Redemption – may it come immediately!
    (b) Only a Jew, which includes a righteous convert (Ger Tzedek), is commanded, expected, encouraged and permitted to keep the Sabbath. A Jew is commanded, expected and encouraged to keep all the kosher dietary laws (laws of “kashrut”). Gentiles of any status are permitted to observe laws of kashrut to the extent that it is possible, if they so desire. A Noahide (one of the Chassidei Umos Ho’olom) obtains additional spiritual reward by observing those kashrut laws, or any of the other Jewish commandments, which are allowed/able to be observed by a Gentile.

  43. I am not a goy.
    A goy is a pagan
    a gentile.
    I am an Israelite. Grafted into the Olive tree. The Messiah is Jewish, from Yehudah.

  44. No one can walk iin truth if they don’t know the way. Once you understand what truth is (emet) the torah is truth you should walk in it if you love the Creator. I say YHWH because that is the Father’s name.
    Devarim 11:7“You do not bring the Name of YHWH your Elohim to naught, for YHWH does not leave the one unpunished who brings His Name to naught.
    There is ONE Elohim=YHWH
    One Messiah=Yahushua.

  45. You know, I feel that what Yahweh wanted for us was to have one care-free day, out of a week of work and toil. Torah says no Servile work, and no lighting of fire. I feel that the lighting of fire was, really, more of a work thing. Because back then, if you didn’t have kindling, you had to either chop it off of the big logs, or go find sticks. Then, after searching for sticks, you had to haul a load (plus some) of wood to your dwelling. It was a load and a half of work! I don’t do what I don’t want to do on the Shabbat. If I want to go have some fun playing volleyball, I’ll do it. It says it’s supposed to be set-apart from all other days–I don’t play volleyball (or any other sport for that matter) hardly ever.

  46. By the way, I’m a Messianic Believer in Yahshua, who is still studying, and searching for an answer, just as we all are, or should be.

  47. YHWH IS The Father Of The Yahudim (Praisers Of YHWH).
    All of YHWH’S People Praise HIS Name, and Follow HIS Instuctions: HIS Torah & Commandments, not man-made Traditions and false-doctrine.
    The Messiah Is The Greatest Servant Of YHWH: WHO Made All Things!
    Fear, Obey, And Love YHWH! Follow HIS Son (HIS Example).
    Keep on Seeking, Ahavah. Great work!

  48. AC, I’d like to resond first to your THEORY that the tanach doesn’t support the virgin birth. The very first prophecy about the messiah refers to it. Gen 3:15 In all of scripture only one man was “born of the seed of a woman” -all others are born of the seed of a man.
    As far as the apostles not claiming him to be the messiah I’m sure that Matthew 16:15-17 states otherwise. So does Mark 8:29.
    Now for the part about Ephriam… I’m sorry, I shouldn’t have been so general there. What i should have said was the lost tribes of Israel. the ten that strayed away. that is what the church is. They are the people that fit the description of Mark 9:38-40 and Matthew 7:21-23
    No i don’t wear tefilin. When God says to keep it on my mind and heart, I don’t think that means to wear it on my forehead all the time. Yes I keep Shabbat to the best of my ability, and I accept the parts of oral Torah that are in line with written torah. I keep Kosher and I’m not married yet. I do sukkot and pesach.
    I aslo determine what to belive and what not to believe in the NT by lineing it up with torah. if it follows Torah the it isn’t a bad thing

  49. now that I read about you different levels of gentiles, I can only simply say that is nowhere written in the Torah. That is man made. how do you think you can control what status a man has with the father? What gives you the right to determine what laws a man is to follow? Anyone who obeys YHWH is part of Israel and is subjected to the laws that were given to ALL of Israel, not just the jews. Don’t the jews only make up the tribes of Judah and Binyamin, and some Levites? And by the way… YHWH gave us his name so we could use it. That’s what names are for. To call or refer to someone or something. Should we just call you “that one dude”?

  50. im confused yonatan as to which matthew you are referring to, the hebrew(shem tob) version or the greek version.
    surely you know the greek version binds you to following the oral torah for jesus is quoted as saying”The scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat; therefore all that they tell you do and observe” (greek version Matt. 23:2-3).
    but i understand if you don’t keep the oral torah if you say you follow the hebrew version for it does not translate to that regard, but it does not hold to a virgin birth, nor that jesus was a messiah.
    here are some examples of differences, i guess you must choose a stance.
    Never identifies Yeshua / Jesus as Messiah.
    Mat 1:1 “the generation of Jesus Christ”
    Shem Tob “the generations of Jesus ( )”
    Never identifies Jesus as Messiah.
    Mat 1:18 “now the birth of Jesus Christ”
    Shem Tob “birth of Jesus ( )”
    Jewish sages given equal status with Yeshua / Jesus
    Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
    Shem Tob “Preaching with great power not as the rest of the sages.”
    The fact that Yeshua / Jesus “shall save His people” omitted
    Mat 1:21 “thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins”
    Shem Tob “he shall save my people from their sins”
    Forgiveness of sin by Yeshua / Jesus removed
    Mat 9:2 “thy sins be forgiven thee”
    Shem Tob “It is by the faith of God that your sins have been forgiven”
    The temple greater than Yeshua / Jesus
    Mat 12:6 “But I say unto you, in this place is one greater than the temple”
    Shem Tob “the temple is greater than this”
    Man sows seed instead of the son of man:
    Mat 13:37 “He that soweth the good seed is the son of man”
    Shem Tob “the one who sows good seed is man”
    Doctrine of the Pharisees unquestioned
    Mat 16:12 Told to beware the doctrine of the Pharisees…”
    Shem Tob “beware of the behavior of the Pharisees…”
    Salvation by Elijah rather than Yeshua / Jesus
    Mat 17:11 “Elijah shall truly shall first come and restore all things”
    Shem Tob “Elijah will come and save all the world”
    Mat 19:28 “When the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory”
    Shem Tob “when man sits upon the throne of his glory”
    “I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world” – left out
    Mat 28:20 – Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo “I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world” Amen
    Shem Tob – and teach them to carry out all the things which I have commanded you forever.
    guys, i have no problem with you accepting the greek version, just know that it says..
    23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
    23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat:
    23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do
    and by the way, the sages, pharisees, say the jesus was not the messiah

  51. There is no such thing as a “Christian Jew”. You are deluding yourself if you think you are. There is not a lot that ALL Jews agree on, except this.

  52. I’m sorry to say so, but it seems that you all rely too much on what you have been taught (interpretations, explanations, and comments from others), rather than looking at what G-ds Word itself says. To much eisegesis (reading into the scriptures) instead of exegesis (reading out of the scriptures). And I know there is always room for interpretation, and that when we read something we all have our own thoughts and feelings, but I see all these arguments passing by, but they lack proof/substantiation/credible justification from scriptures. How can anyone say it’s such-and-so or like this or that, without scriptures to back it up? It is not checked at all whether certain positions will hold up if they are compared to or examined by the scriptures. How can we have a good conversation without any basis? We should have a conversation about what scriptures say and teach instead of debating each other positions;

    That being said most of you just seem to engage in discussion in an attempt to convince the other, but there is no real debate or dialogue at all. It’s all so offensive and defensive, and not helpful.

    Please show where someone is right or wrong based upon scriptures, and try to have an honest and open dialogue and conversation about it. I think all of you love G-d, want to serve Him, and embrace His Word right? So let’s try and see what He has to say, and figure out how He want’s us to serve Him. And

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