Iranian Prez: Holocaust a "Myth"
The AP reports,
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad escalated his anti-Israeli rhetoric Wednesday, calling the Holocaust a “myth” used by Europeans to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.
“Today, they have created a myth in the name of Holocaust and consider it to be above God, religion and the prophets,” Ahmadinejad told thousands of people in the southeastern city of Zahedan.
His remarks drew swift condemnation from Israel, Germany and the European Commission. Germany said the remarks would affect upcoming negotiations over Iran’s nuclear program.
Nu?
There were no Jews being fuck-kicked-punched-eye gouged in the Middle East prior to 1947?
Jeepers!
Those lying Sephardi/Mizrahi BASTARDS.
I’m tearing up my OFFICIAL Global Zionist Conspiracy membership card.
Fuck THAT.
I am glad that Ahmadinejad is airing out this bullshit canard. But if we can’t use it to expose the retrograde racism at the heart of the Arab establishment’s radical rejection of non-Arab national rights throughout the Middle East, and the collaboration with it that tars entire the Western peace and human rights movement, then we will have tragically blown a historic opportunity.
first of all zionista Ahmedinejad is a Iranian Iranians are not arabs
but with that said Admedinejad is a the ugly face of islamofacism
Can anyone say “Preemtive Strike”?
This f*cker is planning a nuclear war as we speak… Do we sit idly by as his plans are so clearly laid out? I really don’t think we should. Call your representitives and lets get the ball rolling to perform REGIME CHANGE in Iran. I don’t know if the current Bush admin is ready for this {judging from past experience}. Anyone have any suggestions {aside from impeaching Bush which is an EXCELLENT idea}…
This is not good news… It is sad when leaders make atrocious statements like the Nutty president of Iran… But we must take him seriously {remember hitler?} Maybe Iran president needs to visit the concentration camps?
Michael U
we know that hashem purposely hardened Pharoah’s heart so that Pharaoh would be more ruthless to us and as a result would get his punishment increased as well.
mr. persian little dick is going to get his rump beaten when the time comes.
Monk, don’t be so quick with that, how will you get discounts from the regular ‘goyim’ prices from fellow yidden storepeople?
Of course he knows the Nazi holocaust was not a myth. Neither was the Iranian holocaust, as a result of the US selling chemical weapons to Iraq, to be used against the Irananians. Neither is the Palestianian holocaust, as the result of the appropriation of Arab land by European Jewry. Many cultures have had a holocaust or one kind of another. What makes the Jewish holocaust so sinister, is the way it has been used to justify another one.
uberkvetcher,
Correction duly noted. Nevertheless, I stand by my point. The Arab establishment, being the member nations of the Arab League, has led the charge rejecting non-Arab national rights in the region and among the member nations of the wider multinational Organization of Islamic Conferences. The notion that the Jewish people is alien to the region, and Israel denied as a legitimate national expression, is pure historical denial. Maybe even politically criminal. Further, the Western peace and human rights movements have enabled the advancement of this discrimination, and betray the principles ostensibly valued by their collective mission. Anyone who believes in the necessity of a genuine peace and human rights movement at this stage in human civilization must be held accountable for their share in this denial.
Julia Eisen: “Neither is the Palestianian holocaust, as the result of the appropriation of Arab land by European Jewry. Many cultures have had a holocaust or one kind of another.”
This only works if you accept that Jewish and Arab national rights in the former British Mandatory Palestine are mutually exclusive. Warmongers buy that shit.
um, the literal meaning of the word holocaust is burnt offering. the nazi attrocities were called a holocaust because 6,000,000 jews quite literally went up the chimney. its usage simply can’t apply to other forms of genocide or non-genocidal ethnic cleansing that do not involve the consumption of an entire people in fire.
Eisen, there is only ONE holocaust, don’t forget that.
What I don’t get is…
It seems clear that this guy would love to nuke the hell out of Israel. Additionally, he is very much for a Palestinian nation. Isn’t he aware that attacking Israel would undoubtedly mean the end for the indigenous Palestinians as well? I don’t think anyone wants to reclaim an irradiated homeland.
It’s sad when people feel they even have to reply to a post as blinkered as Julia Eisen’s, but the distinction isn’t about the meaning of the word as a burnt offering. To even call what’s happening to the Palestinians genocide, let alone a “holocaust,” would be deceptive. It’d be the only genocide in history where the victims have experienced a population growth. Notice how her list of holocausts makes no mention of Darfur or the Balkans. She doesn’t know what the word means. It makes me feel dirty even responding to her. It only legitimizes her ignorant rant.
Balaam’s Donkey… Ahmadinejad couldn’t care less about the Palestinian nation. He uses them as a tool to keep his people distracted and keep his hold on power. Sort of like, “If I let you guys have newspapers, then the Zionists would take over.”
The more we fight about the unique status of the Holocaust and demand recognition and concessions for it, the more we will see these sort of awful statements.
I think they are partially designed continue to diminish the ability of the Jewish community to utilize the memory of the Holocaust.
Nothing works forever. Not against anti-semitism.
Ah, the Palestinian holocaust…
The only genocide in history where there’s more and more of them every year.
DK… Please, who’s playing Duelling Oppressions here? Do you hear anyone saying, “The black Africans of Darfur have it kinda rough, but it’s no Holocaust” or, “Balkans, shmalkins”? No. However, Jews justifiably get angry when people denigrate the memory of the Holocaust by comparing it with things that don’t even count as genocide. It’s a real problem when over 50% of Germans believe the kind of crap Julia’s saying.
Adam,
I am not saying it isn’t a problem. I am saying that our screaming about it each and every time is not helping the problem. It just isn’t. Maybe we have to here, but we don’t to every single time.
And even here, their real goal is to limit the nuke conflict as one between Israel and Iran, not the international community and Iran. This was the goal. Bibi gave them the opening with his blustering. We are helping them succeed by focusing on his Holocaust comments.
Congratulations are in order to Iran for brilliantly playing the naive sucker of a community, the Jewish community. The holocaust comments received the exact attention they were intended to receive.
Israel vs. Iran. The Zionists vs. Iran.
NOT the International community vs. Iran.
The Jewish Holocaust may be the only one you give a damn about, but Jews do not have an exclusive rights on a genocide. I don’t give a damn about the method, the end result is the same; someone has been scapegoated by those who have the power to murder them. People would probably empathize more with the Jewish Holocaust, if Jews built alliances with the victims of other holocausts. The holocaust is the supposed justification for the existence of the State of Israel, whose existence is unique, to say the least, but, somehow the Zionists are not willing to extend this concern to others. If you want special privileges, you have to behave accordingly. If you’re going to behave like all the other scumbags, then that’s the kind of treatment you can expect. You can’t have it both ways.
Ok, now no one jump on me for this one, I’m only serving as the messenger for this tiny piece of information . . .
I’ve read a little about what John Loftus had to say about Iran, and he thinks its not that great of a move. Most importantly, Iran learned from Iraq’s Osirak reactor fiasco and scattered many of its facilities across the country. As a result, Israeli fighter jets capable of taking out any nuclear program would not have enough fuel to carry out the attack and then return.
I bring up John Loftus because he certainly is no lefty. If he’s arguing against striking Iran, it makes you wonder if attacking Iran, as suggested by some in this discussion thread, is such a good idea.
“People would probably empathize more with the Jewish Holocaust, if Jews built alliances with the victims of other holocausts.”
I’m thinking the only people who truly *empathize* with victims of the Jewish Holocaust are fellow victims. On the other hand, if one requires a Jewish display of grief for other current problems, in order to feel *sympathy* with Holocaust victims, then that person is a Nazi or some similar form of worthless human garbage.
JULIA:
“People would probably empathize more with the Jewish Holocaust, if Jews built alliances with the victims of other holocausts.”
In the 60s, it was children of Holocaust survivors – the Baby Boomers – who reached out to the Civil Rights movement in the States. We’ve been at the vanguard of freedom of expression since the inception of the ACLU and Center for Southern Poverty and continue that tradition in many MANY forms.
Who else should we be reaching out to?
“The holocaust is the supposed justification for the existence of the State of Israel, whose existence is unique, to say the least, but, somehow the Zionists are not willing to extend this concern to others. If you want special privileges, you have to behave accordingly. If you’re going to behave like all the other scumbags, then that’s the kind of treatment you can expect. You can’t have it both ways.”
LET ME ADDRESS THIS ON A FEW LEVELS:
1) THE HOLOCAUST IS NOT WHY THE STATE OF ISRAEL EXISTS: The Holocaust was, if anything, a CULMINATION of some of these forces, but it wasn’t an isolated incident. By the early 20th century, we’d been exiled, moved en masse, butchered, oppressed, segregated by almost every country we ever existed in. The Holocaust was the Henry Ford Upgrade to pogroms: an industrialized, orderly genocide vs. the chaotic incremental oppression of previous periods. It doesn’t exist in a historical vacuum unless you want it to.
No one was begging or pleading for the Jews to stay in France or England or Central and Eastern Europe. No one in Berlin or Amsterdam or Vilna or Krakow or Isfehan were saying, “No – come back!” The UN ceded the property and washed their hands of the situation until it became a public relations stink.
I would say ISRAEL is the final solution for most of these nations: their troublesome Jewish communities are now gone and they don’t have to deal with us anymore.
2) WHAT SPECIAL RIGHTS ARE JEWS ASKING FOR: Is self-determination a right reserved for everyone but us? If you support the notion that every oppressed group deserves its own breathing space… why NOT us? Why DON’T we deserve our own country? You don’t like it when America plays the moral high ground and bullies third world countries on their conduct… but it’s okay here? And how is Israel any MORE scumbag THAN ANY OTHER COUNTRY ON EARTH?
“Of course he knows the Nazi holocaust was not a myth. Neither was the Iranian holocaust, as a result of the US selling chemical weapons to Iraq, to be used against the Irananians.”
I realize that Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, but this is not a holocaust.
“Neither is the Palestianian holocaust, as the result of the appropriation of Arab land by European Jewry.”
There is no reasonable argument to make the case that the Palestinians have suffered a holocaust. I guess, based on this logic, Jews suffered a second Holocaust when they were expelled from Arab lands.
“Many cultures have had a holocaust or one kind of another. What makes the Jewish holocaust so sinister, is the way it has been used to justify another one.”
You appear to believe that you can devalue the meaning of words by using them inappropriate contexts.
“The Jewish Holocaust may be the only one you give a damn about, but Jews do not have an exclusive rights on a genocide.”
When have we claimed such rights? Which ethnic group in the US has done the most to call attention to the genocide in Darfur?
“I don’t give a damn about the method, the end result is the same; someone has been scapegoated by those who have the power to murder them. People would probably empathize more with the Jewish Holocaust, if Jews built alliances with the victims of other holocausts.”
See Darfur, Bosnia, Serbia, Rwanda, and the many other examples of genocides the Jewish community has taken positions on.
” The holocaust is the supposed justification for the existence of the State of Israel”
Uh, no. The justification for the existence of Israel is the right of Jews to self-detemrination under the UN Charter and under international law. To the extent that victimization is used as an argument, it is the one thousand plus years of persecution Jews experienced, culminating in the Holocaust, that may be used as justification.
“If you want special privileges, you have to behave accordingly. If you’re going to behave like all the other scumbags, then that’s the kind of treatment you can expect. You can’t have it both ways.”
We want no special privileges. We want the same rights as others – the right to self-determination. Given the history of the European and Arab states that criticize Israel, not to mention the US, I’d say Israel is special – special in that it has led a much more moral existence than any of these states at comparable points in their histories.
People would probably empathize more with the Jewish Holocaust, if Jews built alliances with the victims of other holocausts.
um… jews have been leading the fight against genocide in darfur, led the fight against genocide in the balkans, and are probably more active in resisting the israeli occupation of the palestinian territories than any other group. the number of jewish palestinian solidarity organizations in the sidebar of this website alone should be a case in point.
but the palestinians are not enduring a holocaust. nor are they enduring genocide. in the four years of the intifada, less than .03% of the palestinian people in the occupied territories has been killed — many of whom (in the realm of 40% according to b’tselem) were armed militants. compare that with the 60% of european jewry that was exterminated during the four years of the shoah — few of whom (probably no more than 1%) were armed.
that is not genocide. that is armed conflict. to call it a holocaust is to betray history and reality.
i was just at the screening of a documentary damning the israeli education system that was produced by an israeli filmmaker with a grant from german and french public television stations. my german friend (a grandchild of nazis) with whom i attended the screening tells me it’s entirely typical and indicative of the german desire to find a way to relieve themselves of their collective guilt.
when you call palestinian dispossesion a holocaust, you do the same.
“If you want special privileges, you have to behave accordingly.”
Anyone else getting a vision of a clean scalp?
Dear Monk, I appreciate your thoughtful, thorough response. I agree with you that historically Jews have been the Vanguard of the Progressive Movement, and this is why Zionism has been such a tragedy for us. You must know that the Government of Israel had a relationship with the aparteid Government of South Africa, and has had other unsavory alliances with right-wing dictatorships. For the purpose of “self-determination”, we have been willing to support/negotiate all kinds of “unholy” alliances, which are contrary to our values historically. Our treatment of the Palestinians, has been reprehensible. EVERYONE is entitled to “self-determination”, but when your self-determination comes at the expense of others, you’re going to have problems (like people blowing themselves and you up).Yes, it is true that we were conveniently shipped to Palestine, and this was negotiated by the Zionist leadership, who sold our souls to the devil in exchange for land. Now, as you have said, Israel may be the “final” Jewish solution, if we become expendable to the West, cease to do their dirty-work, now that we are conveniently assembled in one place, surrounded by those who we have made our enemies. As far as our having a “right to a homeland”, displacing two million people, using the justification of it being our “homeland”, or that “God gave it to us”, is absurd, and certainly extraordinary, and would never have happened except for the deal that was made. How many of us are residing in our “ancestral” homeland? If this rule applies to us, then we need to pack, because I know for a fact that I am residing on what once was Native American land. So, this argument is really ridiculous, and everyone knows it. The question is how to resolve this mess. If we allow Palestinians the “right of return”, which we expect, the population of Israel will quickly be more Arab than Jewish. The other solution if to continue beating the shit out of them. Either way, we lose. So, I think that forming alliances with our Progressive Palestinian cousins is probably the way to go, and I know that there are Progressive Jewish people who are building these kinds of relationships, and I salute them.
Michael Brenner, Monk Eastman, Mobius: You took the words right out of my mouth. Julia has no credibility, no understanding of history, and no real concern for actual genocides as they continue to be perpetuated in Sudan and other places. Now, DK… If you think it’s naive to cry foul when one nation threatens another with genocide, then that’s your problem. But here’s a quote from Village Voice writer Nat Hentoff for you mull about:
“I thoroughly agree with what Rabbi Hier told the Forward: ‘Our history has taught us we have paid a dear price by listening to the mentality of the shtetl Jews who said, sha shtil,’ Yiddish for keep quiet and don’t stir up the goyim.” The lesson here, don’t be such a shtetl Jew.
Julia: Everyone who you’re arguing with (including myself) believes in the creation of a Palestinian state, but that doesn’t mean you can make up history. Let’s start with an easy one: Where did you get the statistic “displacing two million people”?
Sorry for the double-post… Just saw her message.
Julia.
If we want to play the ‘who’s alliance is worse’, then look no further to the last Muslim leader of Jerusalem, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who as early as the late 1930s was accepting money from Germany and Italy and was discussing the solution to the ‘Jewish Problem’ before we even had a nation-state. Or Young Egypt, led by Muslim Brotherhood member Abdul Gamal Nasser (future Egyptian President). Young Egypt’s political slogan “One Folk, One Party, One Leader†is a direct translation from German of Nazi slogan. Or Social Nationalist Party in Syria. Led by Anton Saada (known as the Syrian Fuhrer)
The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin Al Husseini, SIDED with the Nazis during WW 2. Amin organized suicide squads against local authorities, applied Nazi methodology of “systematic extermination†of any Arab suspected of less than total loyalty to Pan-Islamic vision of Muslim Brotherhood and had Muslim and Christian Palestinian intellectual leaders and clerics assassinated for protesting.
So ultimately, I don’t CARE who israel makes alliances with.
You can’t say, everyone is entitled to self-determination’ then add clauses like “Well, everyone’s entitled to self-determination… UNLESS it messes up the status quo and creates moral quandaries.” Self-determination is an AMORAL concept. It’s based on SURVIVAL, not ethics.
And what qualifies as a basis for you as to what is acceptable land?
Should it be an island in the middle of nowhere, so as not to step on toes? How about a reservation in Uganda – that’s got some pretty land. Perhaps a vast open space like The Pale? Or Alaska?
Enough, already. I get shpilkes just having these conversations. Too caffeinated.
Self-determination is an AMORAL concept. It’s based on SURVIVAL, not ethics.
awwww come on yo! that’s SOOOO predicated on a western understanding of peoplehood.
check out the last few comments on this thread on o.a.
btw self-determination can exist without nationalism. we used to call it bundism.
Israel IS THE HOMELAND OF THE JEWISH PEOPLE..
Isreal should be the place for a Jewish state, as it is Hashems will that the land be in the hands of the Jews. I realize that Julia doesn’t ‘believe’ this, and maybe others reading this don’t agree. It doesn’t matter if you agree or not, this is the fact of history and the fact of the Jewish religion.
The Arabs and Muslims appeared on the scene much later in history. How do they explain this? They deny that Israel ever existed. They claim the Temple never existed {although history shows otherwise}. Those who want to change history are evil, just as they are denying the horrible event of the German Holocost…
If Julia is indeed Jewish, I pray that Hashem will show her the light eventually. Every Jew that I speak to wants Peace in the Middle East. We have attempted to give land in the hopes for peace, but often we learn the hard way that these forces want one thing… The extermination of the Jewish people… Make all the excuses you want, believe in the goodness of people, etc… The bottom line is history cannot be denied, and the march of history is toward repeating itself. Israel must stand strong in the face of deceit and deception from these dastardly forces.
Happy Channukah All!
Michael
Mobius-
If you want to get REALLY deep into the concept of self-determination and nationalism, specifically for US, then allow to take it a step forward.
The Nation of Israel is the first true distributed nation, or virtual, nation.
We are the longest surviving prominent decentralized nation, united by common norms, mores and ritual language over MULTIPLE continents.
But in a realpolitik context – which is what the modern polity is built on – self-determination as a leveragable (is that a fucking WORD?), viable concept is built on a the nation-state model.
So that’s what I’m using for the sake of this discussion.
Mobius please to explain:
Self-determination is an AMORAL concept. It’s based on SURVIVAL, not ethics.
awwww come on yo! that’s SOOOO predicated on a western understanding of peoplehood.
btw self-determination can exist without nationalism. we used to call it bundism.
Is “bundism” here used as anything more than a synonym for “diasporism”? The Bund seems to be one of those movements which everyone admires but few know much about, these days.
So like others I am curious about it. I understand it to have been a pan-Ashkenazi diasporist movement. Did it survive after the war? Did it have any application to or validity in the non-Ashkenazi, non-Yiddish speaking Jewish world? What would it look like today?
I wasn’t going to respond to Julia’s comments, but alas, I need to put my two cents in.
Julia, don’t you think you’re being a little dishonest for calling out Israel’s relationship with Apartheid South Africa in the way that you did? Yes, it was bad. I won’t disagree with that. But it wasn’t unique. Many other countries maintained trade, among them the US, Saudi Arabia, and many European countries.
Israel was passing anti-apartheid bills in the Knesset in the 1960’s, and really only looked to trade with South Africa after Arab nations were successful in bullying African nations into joining the anti-Israel boycotts. This occurred in the 1970’s.
Even as late as 1987, the Inner Cabinet of the Prime Minister was condemning apartheid.
By mentioning the relationship between Israe and apartheid South Africa, you are trying to paint the picture that Israel supported South Africa’s unjust racial policies. It did not. To suggest it did is extremely dishonest.
Mobius:
“jews … are probably more active in resisting the israeli occupation of the palestinian territories than any other group. ”
Don’t you think Palestinians are the most active group resisting the occupation?
I hope I am being too cynical, but it seems we are at the forefront of fighting genocide when it is convenient to us, like the Arab genocide of black Darfurians. But Israel denies the Armenian genocide because it’s inconvenient to Israel’s alliance w/the Turks. http://www.zoryaninstitute.org…
Remember as well that Ariel Sharon opposed NATO intervention in Kosovo.
Balaam’s Donkey
It seems clear that this guy would love to nuke the hell out of Israel. Additionally, he is very much for a Palestinian nation. Isn’t he aware that attacking Israel would undoubtedly mean the end for the indigenous Palestinians as well? I don’t think anyone wants to reclaim an irradiated homeland.
Perhaps your question was rhetorical, then I wouldn’t have to remind you that the rest of the Arab/Muslim world doesn’t care about the Palestinian self-determination, but rather uses that argument to antagonize Israel. The Palestinans are viewed as the black sheep and foreign workers of the rest of the Arab/Muslim world.
as for Bundism and self-determination,
“The Bund also strongly opposed Zionism, … Nevertheless, many Bundists were also Zionists” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B…
As with every Jewish initiative that is not ‘lshem shamayim’, it will eventually cease to exist. A nation without a state is not self-determining at all.
“it seems we are at the forefront of fighting genocide when it is convenient to us, like the Arab genocide of black Darfurians.” — xisnotx
Fair point to an extent, but it’s definitely an exaggeration. Even the scholar you linked to that condemns those who minimize the Armenian genocide… is a Jewish Israeli.
My question was very much rhetorical, but consider this:
I remember when I was in high school, and dumb enough to get really excited about the supposed validity of this Bible Code book. Now correct me if I’m wrong, but I kinda remember that book predicting some kind of horrible conflict between Israel and Iran in 2006. Creepy, no?
This is why I am holding off on my birthday gift certificate for a free indoctrination at Aish.
why go all the way to bible codes? the prophets in the bible have lots of doomsday warnings that maybe we should not ignore like our ancestors did during the second temple?
As for Israel vs Iran, I’m convinced that Yishmael(Muslims) and Eisav(US) will be fighting it to the death pretty soon. I hope you don’t live in NYC.
Why, I do live in NYC!!!
I’ve got front row seats!!!