Keep It In The Family
Michael Steinhardt goes off about Jewish contributions to higher education and other secular institutions, demanding Jews give more to Jewish continuity causes because “Our own future hangs in the balance.”
Here’s a paddle. Allow me to introduce you to my long deceased horse.
Closer to reality would be:
“Our own UJA’s and their bloated staff and buildings hangs in the balance.”
I turned down UJA two years on a row. I give directly to my shul. I’ve worked there, I see how money gets spent. So much waste…
Give the man props. He puts his money where his mouth is and he makes a damn good point. I recently (1.5 yrs ago) saw statistics in the Jewish Week basically showing the evaporation of NY Jewery.
Shtreimel makes a great point and that is the UJA is a huge beuracracy and much donated cash goes to execs and others.
I support my local Chabad. The Rabbi drives a beat-up piece of shit and he puts together incredible programs and events that make you feel, if nothing else, that Judaism has a future.
Bottom line: If your are a donor, support Jewish causes. If you give a crap, make sure the cash is going to legitimate causes.
See http://www.ujc.org/getfile.asp?id=4644
Young Jewish population smaller than US average
Fewer Jewish Women give Birth compared to US average
Do the math . . .
Gotta say one more thing…
How much money does it take to have a wonderful shabbos? Not much. I’ve been to lavish shuls, with operatic cantors, and it made me want to convert to Wicca. I say (and I’m serious) stop funding all Jewish organizations, services, shuls, etc. And every year people have to reapply for funding PROVING their work, demonstrating how they are doing whan they claim to be doing, with qualitative and quantitative results. If you don’t measure up, your on your own.
One more idea…in Montreal and Vancouver we have too many traditional shuls all within walking distance of each other. The result…each shul struggles to get a minyan, funding, etc. I say, rip ’em down, and build one shul with 3-4 services. And then hold one big communal shabbos dinner, kiddush etc.
Jews need to support jews, because who else will?
If i am not for me then who will be, if i am only for me, what am i?
HaZeev,
I agree, and what looks like “supporting Jews” is sometimes more destructive than helpful. Think of all of your Hebrew school teachers, grandparents, etc., who used guilt and fear to try and convince you to do Jewish things.
An easy way to give more to Jewish causes is to direct even your “secular” contributions through Jewish organizations. As an example, I gave to MDA to support its tsunami efforts, and I gave to the URJ (though that still troubles me a bit) to support its Darfur efforts. Such giving frees other institutional funds for spending on more uniquely Jewish causes, puts a Jewish face on the gift, and builds community for Jews outside the strictly religious context.
My ranking of contributions in order of importance:
Jewish learning
Job creation/placement (jfs/jvs)
Everything else is secondary, redundant and/or a waste of resources.
my 2 cents:
25:28 Now Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison; and Rebekah loved Jacob.
25:29 And Jacob sod pottage; and Esau came in from the field, and he was faint.
25:30 And Esau said to Jacob: ‘Let me swallow, I pray thee, some of this red, red pottage; for I am faint.’ Therefore was his name called Edom.
25:31 And Jacob said: ‘Sell me first thy birth right.’
25:32 And Esau said: ‘Behold, I am at the point to die; and what profit shall the birthright do to me?’
25:33 And Jacob said: ‘Swear to me first’; and he swore unto him; and he sold his birthright unto Jacob.
25:34 And Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentils; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way. So Esau despised his birthright.
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Hmm, why does Esau despise his birthright (ask the rabbi), and what does that have to do with the link to nypress Mobius posted?
ah yes, because rejecting instituional judaism’s idea of what constitutes jewishness in the 21st century, and rejecting the focus on continuity = despising your “birthright.”
there are only so many yiddishe neshamas in the guff.
Eisav identified himself as someone walking towards death. As a hunter, he was out there putting his life on the line every day just to survive and have food for his family. When you’re living a life-or-death struggle, day in day out, abstract philosophical things like ‘birthright’ probably lose their meaning.
Wow… i had no idea that Rushkoff was so angry. He sounds just like every other pissed-off preacher who believes that if you’re not doing things _their_ way, you’re doing them wrong (and putting Judaism in danger, to boot). Of course, i also believe in one version of what Judaism is; i try to generally not be so confrontational about it, though.
“ah yes, because rejecting instituional judaism’s idea of what constitutes jewishness in the 21st century”
This type of rebellion can only benefit Jews the world over. I mean, have any of you actually sat-in on a Fed CJA meeting? For the most part it’s a bunch of wealthy Yids who sublimate their guilt, and access some business contacts adn tax write-offs to boot, by telling the underlings how community dollars should be spent. The whole thing is horribly gross and very Hellenistic.
i didn’t read that piece as angry at all… and i was around him often while he was in that phase. for the most part, he was just really depressed about things.
how does one scientifically measure the rate of assimilation in a community, anyway?
I feel there needs to be a Jewish Renissance. A rebirth of a kindeling flame in the Jewish soul. I feel people are putting Judaism as a low issue in their life. Assimilation is a curse a disease in which individuality, histroy, culture are killed off. Now passively either, we even cut outselves to fit in….its so sad. I dont understand how Jewz can not be in love with Judaism. I wish i could understand i really do….
“I dont understand how Jewz can not be in love with Judaism.”
Oh, it’s actually quite simple…let’s see:
a) a society that values sameness over particularlism
b) Boring shul services
c) Using guilt and tragedy to create commitment
d) Post-Holocaust fallout, pretty close to Post-traumatic stress syndrome
e) Cathedral like shuls that are truly museums and opera houses
f) Rabbis who don’t walk the talk…hell, many have trouble with the talk
g) Natural doubt about a God who interceded in Egypt, but was eerily absent during WW2
h) The restriction of halacha on our ability to pursue our careers, love interests, hobbies and general decadent longings which mainstream culture says is ours for the taking
i) And the general stereotype of Jews being accountants, nerdy, bookish and status/money obsessed.
Have I missed anything?
Actually, a great summary of why Jews have walked or walking away from Judaism can be found within the first 1/3 of M. Lerner’s book entited: Jewish Renewal: A Path to Healing and Transformation.
Unfortunately most jewish organizations are “DO-Nothing” organizations.
Yisrael a Jew first gives to Jewish education. When all Jews are educated then you can think about giving to tsunami and all your other causes.
Family comes first.
shtreimel, add:
j) JAPs (they’re annoying)
k) UJA ads (even more annoying – what’s up with all the sad-looking babies?)
l) fanatically pro-Israel Jews who support the country more than most Israelis themselves and refuse to hear even mild criticism of certain policies (annoying, narrow-minded, counterproductive)
…and you pretty much have it.
This list relates to the main problem I have with donations – as a secular Jew of mixed background, I often feel out of place in shuls, my university’s Hillel group, etc… meaning I don’t go there very often and am less likely to give to Jewish philanthropy groups or local charities.
Therefore I agree that a Jewish Renaissance is needed – my feeling is it probably is or will be taking place in Israel, where for once Judaism is the majority faith/culture and there is someplace for everyone.
AND I’ve wandered off-topic… but food for thought…
It is hard for a mere mortal to comprehend what waste there is in your prototypical Jewish non-profit. I have worked in a JCC and have seen it with my own eyes. There are millions of program directors taking half hour coffee breaks every hour. The programming has little to do with Judaism. In fact Jewishness is usually added to a secular activity in order to give it a so called Jewish flavor. For example graphic design would be “Jewish” graphic design or something of this nature. I have long maintained that the JCC is a manifestation of Judaism’s demise. There is little in relation between the Upper West Side JCC and its elitist ways to the simple yet profound faith of Judaism. The Jewish non profits are all into extravagant gala dinners, emotional speeches on Jewish continuity, intellectual/academic pursuits…. but they have left the Judaism behind. I would not give a cent to the UJA. When I give money to Chabad I know that every bit is going to the advancement of Judaism plain and simple. The Chabad rabbi works with dedication around the clock. NOW THAT is called putting money to work!
As my planning supervisor in Montreal once said: “We’ve created a generation of weary donors. And in the near future, we’re (meaning UJA) going to be in trouble”.
More interesting – and revealing because it seems even closer to mobius’ own voice – is the second article by Rushkoff. Money quote:
Judaism boils down to a 3500-year-old debate about what happened on Mount Sinai and what we’re supposed to do about it. Judaism is not set in stone; it is to be reinterpreted by each generation. All that’s required is a continual smashing of your false idols (iconoclasm), a refusal to pretend you know who or what God is (abstract monotheism) and being nice to people (social justice). In a sense, Judaism isn’t a religion at all, but a way human beings can get over religion and into caring about one another.
Sounds good, anyway.
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Indeed. But let’s ask:
What, indeed, are false idols, and what is the true G-d?
What exactly happened at Sinai – and what are we to do about it?
What exactly is the definition of “being nice to people” – abortion on demand? Mercy killing? Joining an ISM attack on Israeli soldiers?
After 3500 years, not everything is open to “debate” – a nice circumlocution for “I’ll do as I please”. Judaism has already accrued a firm, if flexible, set of answers to these questions. The word “Torah” literally means “guidance” and the word “halacha” means “way”. Now that the smoke is clearing from the funeral pyre of non-Orthodox Judaism, it is clear that the only Judaism that ever survives is the Judaism that takes this pathway to personal and world Tikkun seriously – as an obligating covenant, not an optional “debate”.
But Rushkoff – like Mobius and most of the other posters on this thread – complains about the poverty of Reform temples and secular Jewish organizational life, but retain the mainspring that caused the malaise: they still replace a clear moral covenant with G-d with a cherry-picking, pot-luck, come-as-you-are Sheilaism.
These homemade moralities’ connection to Judaism becomes coincidental as liberal Jews drift further afield culturally, and into greater ignorance of Judaism. They certainly offer no basis for a stable community.
Rushkoff’s romantically stated notion of Judaism as a grand debate sounds good, but disintegrates on contact – just like the previous generation’s restatement of Judaism in terms of large, humanistic ideals. This newfangled, personal Judaism is just as aimless and empty as the cavernous Reform Judaism he – and you all – claim to be railing against.
It takes a mountain of chutzpah – bolstered by hills of ignorance – to assert that this is the Brave New World for Judaism, especially at this moment in Jewish history. The first wave of liberal neo-Judaism erased Jewish particularity by blowing Judaism up into universals. Now those who received that meager inheritance are atomizing Judaism into a “dialogue” – primarily with oneself – that has more in common with scented-candle spirituality that with Judaism.
In the mean time, the Rest Of Us – those Jews who never abandoned the covenant, and the hundreds of thousands who have willingly taken the covenant again upon ourselves – will continue to practice the only Judaism that ever survives.
ah yes, because rejecting instituional judaism’s idea of what constitutes jewishness in the 21st century, and rejecting the focus on continuity = despising your “birthright.”
———————————————–
G-d chose you to do a job and quite frankly I don’t care what you think of ‘institutional’ judaism. It’s a crime against people like me and billions of other human beings who don’t know G-d and are searching for Him.
Like king Saul you now have a mission that is greater than yourself. Inventing a term (institutional judaism) and pretending it sounds negative is a pretty lame excuse to get out of your responsibility.
The Torah is G-d’s wisdom not the Jews despite what all these arrogant atheists like to think of themselves. Isn’t that in fact more racist, to claim that biblical morality was invented by Jews rather than given to them by G-d?
“Eisav identified himself as someone walking towards death. As a hunter, he was out there putting his life on the line every day just to survive and have food for his family. When you’re living a life-or-death struggle, day in day out, abstract philosophical things like ‘birthright’ probably lose their meaning.”
——————————-
Eisav realized what he had given up so he tried to rationalize his decision. So he pretended the birthright was meaningless anyway.
A great parallel with what Rushkoff is doing. This is his way of rationalizing his decision to throw away his birthright (he didn’t even get the soup)
shtreimel, I read your list above, so what do you think the solution is? I thought you mentioned you were orthodox, but some of your criticisms point to a more sincere, but liberal Judaism. I’m just curious what changes you would like to see.
“I thought you mentioned you were orthodox”
I daven at Orthodox shuls. And I strive to incorporate Halacha into my daily life. But my current practice is anything but Orthodox or even Conservative.
“so what do you think the solution is?”
As I mentioned above, let’s focus all of our attention on two areas: 1) learning 2) job creation. The learning however, if dynamic and creative, will encourage all the things I could hope for in a healthy Jewish community.
“but some of your criticisms point to a more sincere, but liberal Judaism”
In my heart, I’m an Orthodox Jew. But I can’t help but me moved, to a greater degree, by Liberal theologians like Heschel and Buber. I find many Orthodox theologians treat doubt with apologetics i.e. Oh, suffering exists because God… and/or Oh, God doesn’t do what He did because… The list goes on and on. At times, I just wish some of ’em (and I have heard a few of ’em) say: Look dude, I’ve got no clue why my cousin died of cancer at 3. And yes, it does plant seeds of doubt in my head. And yes, that does drive me a bit crazy. But I carry on, because I have faith). I mean, hell, we spent a majority of our finances, energy, entertainment looking for, thinking about, and yearning “love”. And this with a 55+ divorce rate. And have you ever seen, smelled, and/or touched “love”. No. But we sure treat it like it’s a table or a chair. So why not take God that seriously? Ok, an orgasm does reinforce the idea that something lovely exists. I’ll give you that.
Shtreimel, thanks for the response. I think our views are similar. However, I still struggle with how to make Judaism relevant to people, particularly young adults. For that matter, I struggle with how to make the important things in life important to people, particularly young adults.
Yisrael and Shtreimel,
You make it meaningful and relevant by telling the truth without apologetics.
You should teach them about what our forfathers testified and swore to us all.
That we were chosen by the creator to be unto him for a special people.
We ARE the chosen. We have a binding irrevocable covenant:
…If we follow G-d and glorify his name and do his commandments that he commanded to Moses our master and teacher -then he in turn will protect us.
What more than thatis necessary?! What can instill more pride and meaning than that knowledge?
We Jews exist today and will continue because of that covenant.
Understand that and teach that.
The reason you struggle is because you yourself do not understand that – of course you struggle with how to make it relevant.
I don’t struggle with that.
“If we follow G-d and glorify his name and do his commandments that he commanded to Moses our master and teacher -then he in turn will protect us”
Some Jews took that view too seriously; as a result they were victimized by Hellenists over 2000 years ago as well as Nazis not even 100 years ago. G-d gives us the responsibility to think beyond such simple concepts. The rules of his creation are more complex than such a rule allows.
Even if I accept your position, the fact is that such facts alone are not sufficient for many Jews. I care not only for my love and devotion to G-d, but for similar love and devotion from other Jews. the bottom line is that they have heard your message and find too many problems with it. Tell me, how do we reach them? Chasidism has made some progress in that cause, but the prophesies of the last Rebbe are going to be increasingly difficult for Chasidism to continue in that regard. Also, Chasidism drives many people away, either because of its emphasis on mysticism and messianism, or because of its tendency to treat minhag as halacha. I am looking for a way to approach liberal/lapsed/non-religious Jews and get them interested in supporting and participating in the community of Jews. Telling them, “We ARE the chosen,” is just not going to be sufficient.
Rushkoff would argue that Chabad, which rejects rationality for superstition, is a perversion of rabbinic Judaism. In any event, many Jews are not comfortable with supporting a sexist, anti-intellectual, messianic movement.
Yisrael,
You are absolutely wrong on both counts.
A. The problem is that some Jews “didn’t” take it seriously not the other way! Hellenists were Jews who didn’t care about the covenant – and broke it.
In fact the Jews in Europe broke the covenant en masse with the “enlightenment” where they cast off the yoke of heaven and went after communism, soicalsm and desired to be like all the other nations. This breaking of the covenant began in the 17-1800’s and lasted all the way until now.
You have it backwards.
B. ….and the bottom line is that they have NOT heard my message and find too many problems with it.
How can you say they have heard it and find too many problems with it?!
Aren’t you refering to the irreligious youth whose “Rabbis” teach them that Judaism is a “culture”…that the Torah is man-made…that our forfather’s testimony to us is most probably false??!!
How wrong you are! The problem is that they have not heard my message but have instead heard from so-called “Rabbis” whose own self-doubts and feelings of guilt about us being chosen filters to the youth and fills Jewish kids with doubt and disgust for Judaism.
If I was a Reform, Conservative, Reconstructionist or Hellenist youth I would also have no interest because the only things I would have heard about Judaism would turn me off.
How odd that in less than 50 min I’m going to hear a lecture on Jewish Philosophy taught by a Reconstructionist female rabbi. Alas, whatever keeps us interested and learning. BTW, tonight is Philo. Next week: Spinoza.
The rabbi/prof sounds very interesting:
http://www.uncc.edu/public_relations/2001/nov/kaplanwins.html
a bit off topic, but could someone provide a sensible reason why folks omit the “o” from God? I understand the prohibition against saying/writing God’s name, but God’s name isn’t God…
re the future of American Jewry… the sky has been falling forever. look at articles from the 1960s, or 1920s, and its filled with people predicting the imminent demise of American Jewry, lost through assimilation.
i don’t buy it. there are peaks and valleys of engagement, and each generation will build on what came before. there are thousands and thousands of (non-orthodox) young American Jews who are active participants in Jewish life through an array of institutions and less formal gathering places.
compare judaism with catholism in the US. no one wants to become a priest anymore, while rabbinical schools ordain plenty of rabbis every year. compare religious life for jews in the US with Jews in Israel: there is much more going on in the US; many more Jews consciously engaged in Jewish life.
if there is a common thread throughout the above posts, it is that the orthodox folks seem quite certain that they’ve got it all figured out, and everyone else is fucked. i understand that the certitude of orthodoxy is very attractive to some folks. but to me, its bullshit. it also seems out of place in judaism, given the centrality of debate re text.
Incite,
Thousands and thousands …. out of millions that used to be…
You are in denial.
As far as G-d vs God. Its true that especially typing is not such an issue but we are careful with adjectives describing Him in addition to His proper name. The issue is erasing and I am used to since my youth not writing the o just like in Hebrew I wouldn’t write the letter “heh” in EloKim (K instead of H) so as not to have an issue when something has to be thrown out or erased.
EloKim is an adjective meaning God or a controlling power.
ben david:
After 3500 years, not everything is open to “debate”– a nice circumlocution for “I’ll do as I please”. Judaism has already accrued a firm, if flexible, set of answers to these questions. The word “Torah” literally means “guidance” and the word “halacha” means “way”. Now that the smoke is clearing from the funeral pyre of non-Orthodox Judaism, it is clear that the only Judaism that ever survives is the Judaism that takes this pathway to personal and world Tikkun seriously — as an obligating covenant, not an optional “debate”.
being open to debate does not mean doing whatever i want, nor does it mean rejecting halakha. i reject that slippery slope entirely and also your contention that reform judaism is a smoldering corpse. i am in total agreement with rushkoff and i sit in yeshiva four hours a day studying gemara and every moment of my life grappling with my “obligations” and their integration into my lifestyle. i would also say that i know quite a number of reform jews who do the same (tho i myself did not grow up reform), and in fact, the reconstructionist jews i know are the most makhmir bunch i’ve ever met. so, what your argument boils down to is you talking shit.
But Rushkoff — like Mobius and most of the other posters on this thread — complains about the poverty of Reform temples and secular Jewish organizational life, but retain the mainspring that caused the malaise: they still replace a clear moral covenant with G-d with a cherry-picking, pot-luck, come-as-you-are Sheilaism.
i believe it was reb simhah bunim of pryzsucha who said, pick two halakhot and stick with ’em. and i also believe it is said that no one can fully observe the 613 commandments (regardless of the bit about not being able to because of the lack of a temple). that’s not an argument for cherry-picking, but rather a general assumption that there is no tzaddik in this generation and that it’s better that a jewish person engage with judaism to some degree rather than to no degree at all. what you’re doing is making rushkoff’s point about who claims ownership over judaism perfectly.
These homemade moralities’ connection to Judaism becomes coincidental as liberal Jews drift further afield culturally, and into greater ignorance of Judaism. They certainly offer no basis for a stable community.
liberal jews are drifting into greater ignorance of judaism? that’s why reform and conservative rabbinical programs are bursting at the seams? that’s why the yeshivas i visit here in israel are packed with americans from liberal jewish traditions? because they’re drifting into ignorance? you don’t have figures to back any of this crap up. you’re just spewing orthodox establishmentary rhetoric. and it’s CRAP.
Rushkoff’s romantically stated notion of Judaism as a grand debate sounds good, but disintegrates on contact — just like the previous generation’s restatement of Judaism in terms of large, humanistic ideals. This newfangled, personal Judaism is just as aimless and empty as the cavernous Reform Judaism he — and you all — claim to be railing against.
that’s funny, because, i’m sitting in yeshiva studying gemara, and all i’m finding are reassertions of the humanistic understanding of judaism i obtained from “the previous generation.”
hrm let’s see… this would be rambam’s misnah torah, on shvita:
“Not only the tribe of Levi but every single individual from among the world’s inhabitants whose spirit moved him and whose intelligence gave him the understanding to withdraw from the world in order to stand before God to serve and minister to Him, to know God, and he walked upright in the manner in which God made him, shaking off from his neck the yoke of the manifold contrivances which men seek–behold, this person has been totally consecrated and God will be his portion and inheritance forever and ever.”
holy crap! goyim can be holy! why that would appear … humanistic! how dare rambam! what a race traitor! to believe there’s holiness in places other than the jewish world!
It takes a mountain of chutzpah — bolstered by hills of ignorance — to assert that this is the Brave New World for Judaism, especially at this moment in Jewish history. The first wave of liberal neo-Judaism erased Jewish particularity by blowing Judaism up into universals. Now those who received that meager inheritance are atomizing Judaism into a “dialogue” – primarily with oneself – that has more in common with scented-candle spirituality that with Judaism.
i really don’t know where you get this shit from. where do you live, jackmo? you need to get yer ass over here for a shabbos with us pariah liberal jews just so you can see how ridiculously wrong you are.
In the mean time, the Rest Of Us — those Jews who never abandoned the covenant, and the hundreds of thousands who have willingly taken the covenant again upon ourselves — will continue to practice the only Judaism that ever survives.
modern judaism isn’t precisely rabbinic judaism (tho it tries to be). and rabbinic judaism is not temple judaism (and knew it couldn’t be). and temple judaism is not sinai judaism (and didn’t want it to be). and sinai judaism isn’t abrahamic judaism (and it couldn’t be). the judaism that survives is the one that evolves.
formermuslim: G-d chose you to do a job and quite frankly I don’t care what you think of ‘institutional’ judaism. It’s a crime against people like me and billions of other human beings who don’t know G-d and are searching for Him. Like king Saul you now have a mission that is greater than yourself. Inventing a term (institutional judaism) and pretending it sounds negative is a pretty lame excuse to get out of your responsibility. The Torah is G-d’s wisdom not the Jews despite what all these arrogant atheists like to think of themselves. Isn’t that in fact more racist, to claim that biblical morality was invented by Jews rather than given to them by G-d?
uh, so you traded in islam for jewish fundamentalism? kudos.
institutional judaism refers to those entites which claim to be representative of world jewry, like the federation networks, the major philanthropists, and the major synagogue umbrella organizations. what any of these have to do with god, covenant, or obligation is beyond me.
you act like the uja is the mishkan.
Joe Schmo, before G-d gave us the Torah, he gave us reason and the capacity to comprehend things like truth, goodness, and justice. Before a child reads the Torah, he first has to understand language, and the concepts behind its words. Indeed, the human capacity to reason (and act accordingly) is arguably why man is made in G-d’s image. You highlight the dangers of “enlightenment,” but enlightenment was simply an application of reason. Reason is a tool that we use to understand truth. In itself it is value-neutral. It can be used for wicked as well as good purposes. If you cannot show why reason points a Jew towards love for the Torah, you insult G-d’s gift to man.
Tell me, what do you say about RaMBaM? In my view, he is the father of Jewish enlightenment. He, more than any other Jew, led us to reconcile reason with Torah. He proposed ideas that conflicted with the views of Judaism in his time, but in so doing, he created a stronger faith.
Too often, I think we forget that the mishnah was never intended to be written. G-d intended for it to remain oral. G-d knew that an oral Torah co-equal with a written Torah would allow Judaism to adjust in a slow and conservative manner to fit changing conditions. In writing it down, we saved it from the danger posed by exile and anti-Semitism. But in the process, we lost something. We lost a Torah that could adapt. Today, there are Conservative and (to some degree) Modern/Open Orthodox responsa that are helping Judaism adapt as intended. However, those responsa can never have the power of the Torah. A truly oral Torah would have preserved the power of Judaism to adapt, and that is why reason has a tremendously powerful role. It allows Judaism to reconcile Torah and the world around us. Oral Torah is that reconciliation.
Yisrael,
The truth is that after trying to decipher what you wrote here I don’t really understand what you are saying.
Are you saying that the Torah says its OK to change the Torah?
Are you saying that the Rambam changed laws we were handed down from the Torah?
Please provide one example of a change that in your opinion shows that the Rambam used “enlightenment” to change something in the Torah. I haven’t seen that.
Are you trying to rationalize the conservative movement’s questioning the testimony of our forfathers- who swore to us that we were given the Torah on Mt. Sinai? – I know for a fact that they question and put doubt into the minds of the youth about this. I have a relative whose name is David Leiber who is the former head of the University of Judaism in California. I had conversations with him and in fact read pamphlets that he put out – for the anniversary of the Rambam no less!
The central issue with conservative Judaism is that they say tht its “not clear” that we were given the Torah. Well Yisrael, if I was a youth and I was taught that the Torah maybe was not really divine… that maybe all our forfather were a little overboard (cookoo?)- why would I be interested in Judaism?! To stick to things that aren’t true?
The Oral Law is not some type of liscense to adapt the Torah. Its simply specific explanations of what the Torah says.
Example 1: we are commanded to circumsize our children. What exactly has to be done? It was clear to Abraham and to the generation of Moses because it was their language and they practiced it. We understand what is meant because our fathers the generation after Moses were taught it by their parents and so on. That is Oral Law.
Example 2: It says in the Torah Moses was told slaughter the animals “as I have commanded you” [Deuteronomy 12:21] i.e. as G-d had showed him. Now if you were to search the whole Torah you will not find the method of slaughtering written out. But clearly Moses was taught and knew it and we know how to do it today. That is oral law!
joe schmo = a brick wall. yisrael is talking to joe schmo. ie., yisrael talking to a brick wall.
i’m totally with you tho izzy.
Mobius, point well taken.
Mobius,
I understand your frusteration.
You like people who don’t know so much and will be easily mislead by your rediculous illogical views.
As far as Yisrael goes,
I understand Yisrael, he sounds like a conservative Jew who can’t seem to make the youth care about Judaism.
What I explained here is the real reason that he will not be successful. There is not even a question in my mind that yisrael will fail.
Yisrael has a choice. Either take my words seriously or ignore it. It sounds like Yisrael will ignore it.
Unfortunately, I expected that even before answering Yisrael’s stated struggle above: “I still struggle with how to make Judaism relevant to people, particularly young adults.”
I explained and wasted enough time. After seeing Yisrael’s last response I have no interest in putting more effort into this.
“Yisrael, he sounds like a conservative Jew who can’t seem to make the youth care about Judaism. ”
No, I am a conservative Jew, who, when confronted with a young skeptical Jew, finds appeals to Orthodoxy ineffective. I appreciate Orthodox perspectives, but stating Orthodox perspectives does not work with those who are both skeptical and swayed by secular/materialistic society. The Orthodox answer works for five year-olds, but for the average 16-30 Jewish crowd, it does not work very well at all. My job is to educate Jews as to why love for G-d is important in spite of their objections. When a Jew says, “there is no G-d,” “I can’t believe a rabbi who died hundreds of years ago,” “the story of Moses is mythology,” that person is in need of real counseling as to why they should embrace Judaism even if there is a chance they are right. The bottom line is that human knowledge is limited and imperfect. Consequently, knowledge of any fact is always subject to the possibility that the fact may be wrong. The question is how to get Jews to act in accordance with Judaism given the imperfections and limitations of human knowledge. That is a hard thing to do because it is a matter of getting young Jews with few important priorities (a spouse, children, etc.) to value the unseen (G-d) above the seen (sex, parties, good tasting treif, self-indulgence, etc.). Joe Schmo thinks that is easy to explain. It is not. The difference is not Conservatism vs. Orthodoxy. The difference is that I deal with real people and Joe Schmo deals with ideal Jews while ignoring the rest.
uh, so you traded in islam for jewish fundamentalism? kudos.
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Fundamentalism means something else to different people.
What I find interesting is that the only Judaism that is struggling with intermarriage, assimilation etc. is the one practiced by Jews constantly trying to make judaism ‘relevant’ to our lives. You could say that in a couple of decades Jewish fundamentalism will be the only Judaism left. After which the word ‘fundamentalism’ will be dropped because nobody uses it anymore.
Judaism undoubtedly will survive, but it’s just a tragedy that a 4000 years old bond is broken so easily.
Yisrael,
I do deal with people. I know many Jews who did come to understand.
Have you heard of Aish Hatorah? Have you heard of Ohr Someach? They deal with mature adults.
I have an uncle who runs a synagogue way out in the Northport area of long island. He is successfull.
I personally have many irreligious Jewish Russian friends in addition to American ones.
Hmm I have a good question for you.
Have you ever seen an irreligious Jew become reform or conservative from being less than that and remain that way-aside if it was through marriage to a conservative fellow?
-or is it only the other way. That they only go from modern orthodox to conservative and from conservative to reform?
If you were right that the issue is not conservative vs orthodox then you should have success like orthodox people do in getting people to move up to permanently conservative from reform or less.
“Have you heard of Aish Hatorah? Have you heard of Ohr Someach? They deal with mature adults.”
yeah, ok. i went to aish hatorah. it’s a blackhat factory that brainwashes people into believing that there’s only one authentic, legitimate form of jewish practice — and its the one they offer.
ba’al t’shuva institutions like aish take advantage of people who are seeking spirituality and meaning in their lives and ram orthodox dogmas and superstitions down their throats. it’s a crime.
look at what happened to my sister — she was a wiccan. then she went to neve. now she’s a chareidi kachnik who thinks homosexuals deserve the death penalty. wow! that’s good torah learning!
“Have you ever seen an irreligious Jew become reform or conservative from being less than that and remain that way”
Yes, but not often enough. Many return to liberal Judaism when they have children. And, unfortunately, they make choices regarding dating and marriage along the way that impair their return. Liberal Judaism is often the only Judaism that is acceptable to people who believe in gender equality, and even Coservative Judaism is problematic in this regard for some egalitarian Jews when it comes to witnessing legal documents, which is restricted to men among Conservatives. Certainly, when you look at the 50% or so of Jews who are unaffiliated and non-practicing, almost none of them would consider Orthodoxy. Those are the ones I worry about most and are most in need of Jewish influence in theri lives. The Orthodox position might reach 1 in 100 of those people, but Liberal Judaism reaches a far larger percentage. Even if I am able to bring a non-practicing Jew back into the fold merely to explore his/her culture, that is a small victory. Yet it is an appeal that can only be made by a Liberal.
I was trying to take a break from all this writing!
Yisrael, I believe that the reason only 1 in 100 are reached by the orthodox is simply because we the religious Jews are not out there enough in the communities where the Jews you refer to live. We should be there. Only a few organizations such as Aish and Chabad do it.
That is our fault we are partially to blame.
jews……whats the point of jews at all?