Sam Green is a little…green at this
I used to work at New Voices Magazine, the only independent publication written by and for Jewish undergrads. It was the best (and worst) crash course in nonprofit management and journalism I could ask for. Thrown in the deep end of the Jewish philanthropic pool, it was sink or swim.
I can count myself as half-successful, since our editorial line of publishing critical student thought ran us into trouble with the David Project, who in 2007 intervened in our funding with the UJA-Federation of NY. We had to cut staff, I got the axe. This is a heretofore unreported detail which is harmless now to mention — yes, I lost my job because of the David Project’s branding New Voices as “bad for young Jews, bad for the Jewish state.” (As quoted to me by a UJA official who kindly read me the email David Project circulated to my funders. There was plenty more to it also.) Needless to say, I harbor a small grudge against the David Project and some of the UJA. The first is zealotry incarnate, the other a paragon of spinelessness.
So when I read Sam Green’s opinion piece in New Voices chastising all the Jewish anti-Zionists out there, I could only chuckle at the unintended (and likely unaware) incongruity. The misfortune of arguing a politics of exclusion in a publication that lost $30,000 and a staffer to being too open-minded diminishes his intended impact. Then again, only myself, my friends then, and those involved remember that episode, so perhaps we shouldn’t expect him to “know your roots” as he says.
Then again, Sam Green is just, well, very green. New Voices isn’t the New York Times. But a part of our mission was to treat student journalists like real journalists, so I take the time here to dignify even the embarrassment of “Don’t Hate the Jewish State” by Sam Green.
I find Green’s central argument vapid, akin to yelling “Jews, stick together!” in a Hebrew school cafeteria food fight. Empty appeals to ethnicity make not a moral case. Maybe Green isn’t aware that collective identity is nosediving among the under 35 demographic, as attested to by Steven M. Cohen, whose conclusions I dispute but not his metrics. Young Jews are seeing themselves as Jewishly flavored but not bound. Idealism, universal values and principles unite and motivate them — an appeal they find under the left-leaning social justice movement and certainly not in the racial ties-trumpeting Jewish old guard. Green, your argument is embarrassing the “new” in New Voices, please stop.
Neither does Green seem to understand his quarry. Is Green arguing against Jewish anti-Israel advocates, against anti-Zionism, or against any criticism of Israel? He attacks all three without seeming to know they are three wholly different targets. I presume it is the first. The third target unfortunately includes most Jews and definitely all Israelis. He doesn’t define any of his terms, and I wonder if even he knows who he’s attacking.
To argue that anti-Zionists suffer a “confused ideology” reveals a lack of understanding of his opponents’ basic premises. Ethnically-defined yet democratic states tend to breed convoluted arguments for racial preference. In contrast, I find true anti-Zionism almost alluring with it’s simplicity: nation-states are a bad idea and nationalisms tend to produce wars, thus Israel should be a state of Jews and Palestinians equally. Add a dash of “Israel as safe haven is a failure as a country perpetually at war” just to add a touch of concern for Jewish continuity, and Zionism begins to look like Thomas Hobbes and David Ben Gurion playing strip Twister drunk. I argued against that dangerous simplicity recently. But I dare say anti-Zionism is much less confusing.
Now we can get to one of Green’s most unfortunate lines:
Israel is a place where all Jews are welcome to live and work.
Suffice it to say that the issues of inter-Jewish discrimination in Israel are quite well-documented by excellent Israeli researchers and social justice organizations which I needn’t list ad nauseam here. But his point serves to raise in the minds of readers the list of Israel’s domestic shortcomings, particularly their detriments on non-Jews. Israel is an unfriendly place for Israeli Arabs, migrant workers and non-Jewish Russian immigrants. If Green were trying to build appreciation for the state, then he fails by raising the very specter anti-Zionists claim as proof of “Zionism = racism.”
Also, Green seems to use “disaffected” as a dirty word. I would argue that many “disaffected” young Jews are effectively distant for two reasons: (1) Because Israel is pursuing disastrous policies that are often openly inimical to human rights and Palestinian self-determination, antithetical to most Americans’ democratic values. (2) Because of preachy, narrow-minded Israel defenders who delight in the politics of exclusion. I feel disappointed that in New Voices, we young free thinkers finally escaped from the balding apologists only to fall victim to a young one.
The one compelling appeal by Mr. Sam Green is unfortunately buried in a mountain of feces:
For a Jew to deny Israel’s right to exist as a democratic Jewish state is to deny that the Jews should be able to live with the same amount of self-determination as the deserving, victimized Palestinian populace.
And there we have it. If we’re arguing from a place of self-determination (mind you, true anti-Zionists don’t believe in one) then Jews get a state and Palestinians get a state. Fairness. (Thanks for the mention of J Street, but they’re not a viable option for people who disavow nation-states. Back to square one, Green.)
Near the very end, Green’s already questionable understanding of the topic sadly deflates completely with a lackluster expose when he reveals anti-Israel Jews’ motivations as…
…a strong desire to break with the past, advocate for radical change and be different from the previous generation…
If Sam Green is arguing against hope and change, then he was definitely born in the wrong generation. Both right and left desire to break with the status quo, advocate for an ideal, and change to an idealized future. The pro-Israel right-wing could gather under this banner if it ended with “in Judea and Samaria!”
Feel my pride in student journalism wince. As I’ve detailed, there is little logic in this piece. But most regrettable over even the few bits I fisk here, Green offers no quotes, no data, no anecdotes, no supporting evidence, no surveys to support this claim. The entire article has no citations. Not even personal experience. The article is empty. Green, a word to your mother: please, try journalism next time.
An addendum: I think Sam Green’s commitment to engaging Jewish issues is what New Voices was founded for, nearly 35 years ago. Kudos also to editor-in-chief Ben Sales for empowering him. I feel a little guilty since I’m 25 and employed in progressive Israel advocacy, whereas Green has yet to graduate. It’s my values as a New Voices devotee that we engage all our young writers as adults, because if we infantilize them the way David Project did UJA’s funding board, then, God forbid, Green will still write like this when he’s head of JTA.
Cross-posted from Judaism Without Borders.
Word, dude.
“Israel is a place where all Jews are welcome to live and work.”
What if I want to live there and work as a Reform Rabbi? I’m certainly not welcome to do that. It’s possible, but not particularly welcoming.
What if I want to live there and work as a Reform Rabbi? I’m certainly not welcome to do that. It’s possible, but not particularly welcoming.
Really? That’s the reason you’re not moving to Israel, hand on your heart?
If 200,000 Jews who thought like DAMW would move to Israel during the next decade, then it would become much, much easier for you to work there as a Reform Rabbi. That’s just the political reality in Israel.
But, 200,000 Jews who support the Reform Movement would never move to Israel, so that kind of change won’t happen, so you’ll be able to keep bemoaning the fact that Israel isn’t welcome to the Reform Movement.
Ethnically-defined yet democratic states tend to breed convoluted arguments for racial preference
Agreed. Israel can’t ever be what we would consider a definitional liberal Western democracy if it wants to continue to also to be a “Jewish homeland.”
But, 200,000 Jews who support the Reform Movement would never move to Israel, so that kind of change won’t happen, so you’ll be able to keep bemoaning the fact that Israel isn’t welcome to the Reform Movement.
Blame the victim? Because Reformim won’t move there and fix the problem, they can’t complain? Please. The Rabbanut is anti-pluralism from top to bottom. That’s not American Jewry’s fault.
American Jews are victimized because the Israeli Rabbanut is anti-pluralism?
Explain.
American Jews are victimized because the Israeli Rabbanut is anti-pluralism? Explain.
You really need this explained to you, Jonathan1?
I don’t feel victimized. Just unwelcome.
@EV. Yes, I do.
Jonathan1 — Are you aware, to use one of millions of ways Israel affects Jewish religious life everywhere, that HUC-JIR sends its first-year rabbinical students to Israel for a year? That’s an obvious, easy example, but I’m genuinely curious whether you can’t understand the ways Israel’s anti-pluralist rules on Judaism affect Jews everywhere.
If you feel Israel has no place in the lives of Jews outside of Israel, and that, for instance, Reform converts should not be permitted to be married in Israel or buried in Israeli cemeteries should they decide to move there, okay, that’s your right to believe. But the corollary to that is that non-Orthodox Judaism must spiritually divorce itself from Israel — an impossibility for every denomination.
the corollary to that is that non-Orthodox Judaism must spiritually divorce itself from Israel
Now this I could get behind.
but I’m genuinely curious whether you can’t understand the ways Israel’s anti-pluralist rules on Judaism affect Jews everywhere.
Ok. I’m genuinely curious. I’m still not sure how it affects the lives of Jews in America.
that HUC-JIR sends its first-year rabbinical students to Israel for a year?
HUC-JIR students are victimized by the Israeli Rabbinate? Can you give some examples of this?
Reform converts should not be permitted to be married in Israel or buried in Israeli cemeteries should they decide to move there,
Ironically, they would then become Israelis if they moved to Israel. So, of course, the Rabbinate’s oppression would affect them. But, that’s because they would be living in Israel. And, as I wrote above, if enough Jews–who believed in the Reform philosophy–would move to Israel, then they would help make Israel a more pluralistic place. But, as I wrote above, they aren’t moving to Israel anyway, so nothing will change, so we’ll all be able to keep writing that we can’t move to Israel because of the Rabbinate.
Eli Valley, you’re telling me that after all your fabulous, radical, hard-hitting cartoons, you’re really just another person who thinks that Israel should be nicer to the non-datiim?
Miri — Haha, I almost wrote “albeit a utopian one” after “an impossibility,” but I didn’t wanna open that can ‘o worms here. I was mostly trying to figure out the limits of Jonathan1’s support for haredi monopolies, so I played devil’s (or denominational’s) advocate in that regard. I do think that Israel should be nicer to the non-datiim though — not because Israel should be the center of Jewish life or because I belong to any denomination (chas v’challilah) but because theocracies are bad wherever they arise — and the haredi monopoly is one manifestation of Israel’s slide in that direction.
I was mostly trying to figure out the limits of Jonathan1’s support for haredi monopolies
And, I’m still waiting for an example of how the Heredi monopoly over the Israeli Rabbinate affects the lives of Jews in America.
So far, we have: HUC students spend their first year in Israel.
Jonathan1 — No, the Reform movement will have to remove all mention of Israel from its prayer books, synagogues, summer camps, etc. — a costly endeavor if nothing else. To continue placing a country whose religious authorities despise them at the center of the movement makes no practical sense.
Ok. That’s their choice, I just wouldn’t call that situation “victimization.” Maybe you would.
1/ If I were the non-Haredi establishment I’d be more worried about the virtual monopoly the Haredim are developing with regard to Jewish births.
2/ Did ‘New Voices’ try and get funding from NIF? From Soros? Why would New Voices try and get funding from their opponents?
Just curious (not contentious), but where do we agree and where do we disagree? I refer to the following lines: ” Maybe Green isn’t aware that collective identity is nosediving among the under 35 demographic, as attested to by Steven M. Cohen, whose conclusions I dispute but not his metrics. Young Jews are seeing themselves as Jewishly flavored but not bound. ”
Steven M. Cohen
Steeeeeeeeeeeeeve………..
Steven, nice to see you here! I think I disagree mostly that intermarriage is at fault for the disenfranchisement of young Jews. Also, I take as a personal affront that tone around intermarriage, seeking to maximize my Jewishness and minimize my non-Jewish roots, which I feel your conclusions feed.
There are many causes that drove much of the last and present generations to marry out. Instead of discerning those issues, the community fixates instead on the beautiful love of my parents, a ex-Catholic and a Jewess, as the downfall of our people.
Feel free to email me if I’ve misrepresented your research, I’ve been meaning to have a personal and respectful conversation about it with you for some time over coffee.
KFJ,
I actually love this kid’s article. I mean, his little 9/11 example suggests that he has a slightly jingoistic bent, and let’s be honest, Jews don’t ever really go jingo like this unless there’s actually a conflict happening in Israel. So, you know, big ups to him for not waiting for the army to roll out for him to tell us all that we need to wave our flags.
Also, my favorite line:
“Advocacy for Palestinian human rights and self-determination must come alongside equal support of the same rights for Israelis.”
Not if you’re an anti-Zionist, it doesn’t. His basic argument is, “Hey, you anti-Zionists! You should stop it.”
It’s thoughtful as hell, dare I say brililant?
@Steven M. Cohen: please don’t read into my last comment too much. I just really wanted to write “Steeeeeeeeeeeeeeeve…….”
Great response KFJ.
Regarding Reform oppression in Israel….
So imagine that your mother was a reform convert who made aliya. Then you can’t get married in Israel proper. Oh, and neither can your children.
And so, being a US citizen, you move to a country that does not discriminate against your faith community. America.
Or how’s this, from a friend: Parents separate in a long drawn out divorce. Friendly, but drawn out because when couples not recognized as Jewish, but who are actually Jewish, need to divorce, they have no access to the religious authorities in charge of personal status law.
So they have to have the rabbis agree to allow the case to be dealt with in family court, which can take an extra year.
But then…. the shame of it, it turns out that the woman has become part of another couple, and a few months after the civil divorce is finalized, she gives birth. (Years after the separation….)
In Israel, the ex-husband is entered as the father, even if the real father is attending the birth and claiming paternity, because of religious laws aimed at minimizing the legal classification of bastardom. Which, mind you, only apply to Jews. And these folks, all from Reform convert families, are not seen as.
And the only way for that ex-husband to remove that additional child from his roster is to formally abandon the kid, as there is NO LEGAL WAY to actually change paternity. In Israel, independent paternity blood tests are illegal, and courts will not permit one if it might prove bastardom.
This kind of crap isn’t aimed at Reform Jews, it could have happened elsewhere and probably has. But the idea that Reform Jews are simultaneously deprived of religious rights will having to endure religious restrictions is an affront to civil and human rights.
Israel is to Judaism what the papacy is to Christian spirituality.
And, to follow up on what JG just said, why would I want to note to a country, even to try to change it, if it will treat me like that now, and if it’s never shown any evidence of wanting to change? No thanks, I don’t hate myself that much.
>>” The misfortune of arguing a politics of exclusion in a publication that lost $30,000 and a staffer to being too open-minded diminishes his intended impact.”
Ah, the heavy, heavy wages of “open-minded” martyrdom…
So, the State of Israel is synonymous with the Chief Rabbinate. I guess that means that the Commonwealth of Virginia is synonymous with AG Cuccinelli. And the City of Boston is synonymous with that obnoxious Red Sox fan at the bar. It also means that the country of Greece is the same as that lousy gyro from a street vendor, and that California is Proposition 8.
why would I want to [move] to a country, even to try to change it, if it will treat me like that now, and if it’s never shown any evidence of wanting to change? No thanks, I don’t hate myself that much.
You sound like you’re talking about an abusive girlfriend, and not a complex society of 7 million people.
Side comment: Remind me to tell my gay friends who live in Virginia and Texas that they’re self-hating.
Israel is to Judaism what the papacy is to Christian spirituality.
This sums up a really good argument for separating Synagogue and State in Israel. I think Yeshayah Lebowitz (among others) made it like 40 years ago, and a few hard working do-gooders have been trying to free Israel from the Chief Rabbinate ever since.
dear spoiled children,
while you gaze at the night sky with your tiny little telescopes, israel has the equivalent of the hubble space telescope focused on your language, history, culture, cuisine… you are like spoiled children that ask “what have my parents done for me?”
your whining is reminiscent of the people of the kingdom of judah who leisurely watched sennacherib invade and decimate the people of neighboring israel… before he came for jerusalem.
What have my parents done for me? Well, in your analogy, they beat up all the people who originally lived on my block and now all the kids at school are pissed off at me all the time because of something they did.
But, you know, it’s everyone else’s fault and I should be grateful because my parents invented Instant Messenger or something.
You sound like you’re talking about an abusive girlfriend, and not a complex society of 7 million people.
I mean, I’m sure it’s a great complex society of 7 million people, and if I had any a priori connection to it, that would be really important to me. But I don’t. And most of what I know about Israel is increasingly bad newsworthy and political stuff that would make me feel unwelcome (at best). So I choose to have nothing to do with the country, and no one has ever done a good job of convincing me why I should (since they usually address whether I could instead, or else use shoah language and motherland language that don’t connect to me on an emotional level).
I’m sure non-Jewish countries out there with oppressive regimes (most, yes, much worse than Israel) also have great people and complex societies in them, but I’m not moving there and trying to change them either.
(CW, thanks for fixing my T9 typo. I shouldn’t post to Jewschool from my phone while half asleep anymore.)
Oren, you talk about Israel as if it weren’t the Diaspora’s child, which I think is more accurate. The country is a charity case and can’t exist without our funding or political support. That Hubble telescope? You’ll find a placard on there of some American, Canadian or UK Jew or community. You can point it back into your soul and ask yourself if patronizing the Diaspora is any way to treat YOUR parents.
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: I’m not gonna move somewhere that sucks just so I can help fix it. If I’m perfectly happy and free to be the Jew I am here, why should I go somewhere else?
Because the Falafel tastes so good, David! And it tastes so much better because it’s been appropriated from the PEOPLE THAT ARE TRYING TO DESTROY US.
How has no one given the Hobbes line props yet?
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: I’m not gonna move somewhere that sucks just so I can help fix it. If I’m perfectly happy and free to be the Jew I am here, why should I go somewhere else?
Ok, so we all agree. You aren’t moving to Israel anyway. You have no intention of moving there (who can blame you?) But, you still want to reserve the right to pretend that you aren’t moving to Israel because of Heredi control over the Rabbinate (which is a completely a function of the political situation.)
And, if you, and everybody else who wants to pretend that they aren’t moving to Israel because of Heredi control over the Rabbinate, actually did move to Israel . . . then the political situation would change, and the situation with the Rabbinate would change.
So imagine that your mother was a reform convert who made aliya. Then you can’t get married in Israel proper. Oh, and neither can your children.
Except, the question was raised as to how the Rabbinate affects Jews in America, not in Israel.
The country is a charity case and can’t exist without our funding or political support.
“Our” meaning the U.S. government, not American Jews–when will we put that myth to rest?
Because the Falafel tastes so good, David! And it tastes so much better because it’s been appropriated from the PEOPLE THAT ARE TRYING TO DESTROY US.
Good line BD, but I’ve gotta point out that Middle Eastern Jews were eating Middle Eastern food for millenia. I’m as sad as the next guy that the Ashkenazim gave up brisket when they got to Palestine, but Felafel is as Jewish as Mizrachi Jews are.
Oren, you talk about Israel as if it weren’t the Diaspora’s child, which I think is more accurate. The country is a charity case and can’t exist without our funding or political support. That Hubble telescope? You’ll find a placard on there of some American, Canadian or UK Jew or community. You can point it back into your soul and ask yourself if patronizing the Diaspora is any way to treat YOUR parents.
Good point KFJ. Perhaps a better analogy is parents with GED’s working hard and saving up their money to send their kid to the local public university as the first member of their family to ever go to college. The idea is for the kid to gain something the parents never had, and benefit the whole family. What Oren is right about is that there are tangible benefits that Israel brings the Jewish people. What you’re right about is that (a)this doesn’t make Israel perfect by any means and (b)the Diaspora “cousins” deserve a lot more respect than Israelis often give them.
And, if you, and everybody else who wants to pretend that they aren’t moving to Israel because of Heredi control over the Rabbinate, actually did move to Israel . . . then the political situation would change, and the situation with the Rabbinate would change.
If everyone did, yes. But if a realistic but increased number did, even twice or three times as many liberal Jews as make aliyah now, then still nothing would change. The hypothetical you’re advancing is an unrealistic “ideal” that DAMW and I couldn’t even begin to approach by moving or by any amount of advocacy.
Desh writes:
But if a realistic but increased number did, even twice or three times as many liberal Jews as make aliyah now, then still nothing would change.
Something would change: Diaspora liberal Jewish communities would miss them.
@Desh. That is very true. And, if you and DAMW aren’t moving to Israel because of the Rabbinate, I understand.
But, how many “liberal” North American Jews fall into this category? 10? 50? 100? It sucks for them, but for the most part Reform Jews in America have no interest in moving to Israel to begin with. None at all. Which is fine, but we might as well admit as such.
[F]or the most part Reform Jews in America have no interest in moving to Israel to begin with. None at all. Which is fine, but we might as well admit as such.
Depending on what you mean by “for the most part”, I don’t think you’ll find anyone here disagreeing with you. Most people living in this country, of any demographic slice, don’t want to move to another country.
@Desh. Ok. So, we’re agreeing. The problem is when DAMW writes:
“Israel is a place where all Jews are welcome to live and work.”
What if I want to live there and work as a Reform Rabbi? I’m certainly not welcome to do that. It’s possible, but not particularly welcoming.
which is a bit dishonest, because he isn’t moving to Israel in the first place.
not to “patronize the diaspora” (which is hilarious because I am actually american), but the word for parent in hebrew is “horeh”, related to teacher “moreh” and yes, “torah”. that is what a parent does, they teach you who you are, where you come from and everything about you. they have been integrating photons since before you were all born, and in space nonetheless (where the sky is the clearest). chutzpah shel yeladim mefunakim!! learn hebrew and then talk!!
I think he meant that as a hypothetical. I don’t know DAMW, but I’m reasonably certain he’s not a Reform rabbi. Try instead:
“What if someone wants to live there and work as a Reform Rabbi? She’s certainly not welcome to do that. It’s possible, but not particularly welcoming.”
@ Desh. Fine. It’s the same deal then. How many people are there in this situation? 15?
The Rabbinate is screwed up in Israel because there are tons of Heredim who vote for political parties, that join coalitions on two issues: control of the Rabbinate and funding for their communities.
Non-Heredim in Israel vote for political parties with other agendas but, I’m sorry, the Reform Movement is not an important issue to most non-Heredi Israelis.
So, again, the problem with the Rabbinate’s disrespect for the Reform Movement is, by and large, an issue for hundreds-of-thousands of Jews in North American . .. . who have no intention of actually living in Israel anyway.
I guess we just want Israelis to make their country suitable in the eyes of those who make bi-annual, 10-day-trips to visit?
Oren,
Mi Hutzpan po. Yediat ivrit aynena kshura to havana v’gam lo l’tvuna politit.
What’s more, I’d rather Israel change without having tons of loud, underage drinking Amerikakim running underfoot, and then returning to the States to proclaim in shrill tones how they ‘understand, man, cuz they were there’ like some hippie who was at Woodstock.
Yisrael is not, should not be a themed summercamp for meaning starved foreigners and their children. It’s a country, not a tourist site.
focused on your language, history, culture, cuisine
Out of curiosity, how do others generally respond to statements like this? From my perspective, this statement is wrong on nearly every level. But I’m sort of tired of arguing these kinds of assertions on their merits. Is there another way to respond?
Also: What Oren is right about is that there are tangible benefits that Israel brings the Jewish people
CW, can you elaborate on this? What are these benefits again?
And finally, this – learn hebrew and then talk!! – is really extraordinarily obnoxious. Do you really imagine that no one here knows Hebrew?
Miri – I’m with you. Sure, Israel may be focused on (some of) my history and (one of) my language(s). But Israeli culture and cuisine has little more to do with me than the culture and cuisine of the Jews of Uganda, France, or Shanghai. And you’ll note religion is notably (and correctly) missing from his list.
Exactly. Kosher McDonald’s. Yes.
remember klal yisrael: kol yisrael arevim ze le ze. we are all responsible for one another. I am not a christian, but I gotta hand it to jesus. he grabbed his beitzim, jumped on a donkey, and rode right into jerusalem, where the sanhedrin/pontius #$@#ed up his #$@%. i’m sure he could have lived perfectly fine in galilee or where ever, but he decided for some reason he could not go on without getting in a jews face in jerusalem. and whether or not you believe any of that happened, things definitely changed for judea province.
Well I read this whole, embarrassing comment thread and still didn’t see an answer to Jonathan1’s question re: the alleged “victimization” of reform and conservative Jews by the Israeli rabbinate. Every last feeble attempt at answering that question has resorted to hypotheticals involving ISRAELIS. How the Israeli rabbinate “victimizes” non-orthodox diaspora Jews remains a mystery to me.
This thread can be summed up in one sentence (made above by David Wilensky): “I’m not gonna move somewhere that sucks just so I can help fix it.”
And there you have it folks. The rest of this discussion is just window dressing.
@rootlesscosmo
EV wrote:
No, the Reform movement will have to remove all mention of Israel from its prayer books, synagogues, summer camps, etc. — a costly endeavor if nothing else. To continue placing a country whose religious authorities despise them at the center of the movement makes no practical sense.
If that’s not victimization, I don’t know what is!
To say nothing of the extreme pettiness such an action would represent.
“makes no practical sense”? Practical? really, Eli? Is Reform and Conservative Jewry’s connection to Israel so superficial as to eradicate mention of Israel in our prayer books based on an Israeli gov’t policy with which we disagree?
“But, you still want to reserve the right to pretend that you aren’t moving to Israel because of Heredi control over the Rabbinate”
I’m not pretending. That’s a big part of the reason it sucks, which, as I’ve said, is why I don’t live there.
Eretz Yisrael vIrushalayim Medinat Yisrael. I thought we made this perfectly clear.
That is, they are not equal, with a poor attempt at representing a “not equal” symbol with less/more. Lemme try that again.
Eretz Yisrael vIrushalayim != Medinat Yisrael.
@DAMW.
Ok. If you were going to move to Israel, but you aren’t in large part for that reason, then it truly is a shame for you.
However, how many other people exist like you in North America? 10? 15?
SOmehow there seems to be the assumption that treatment of the reform an conservative is a problem in the diaspora rather than a problem in Israel. I hate to let you all in on the secret, but there are Reform and Masorti Jews in Israel. It used to be the case that the majority of them were Americans who had made aliyah, but now, for the masorti movement at least (I can’t speak either way to the Reform) that’s not so.
And it’s been catalogued at length on this blog exactly how problematic the treatment of Non-Orthodox Jews in Israel is – heck, for that matter, the treatment of non-hareidi Jews- which excludes many Orthodox as “on the outside”
From the inability to marry, bury, visit the Western Wall, use the mikvaot, worship in their tradition while serving in the army, get a divorce, convert, the problems are quite many and varied.
If Israel wants to be a civil country and not a religious one, then it cna go ahead and say screw the other Jews. THen the other Jews can stop sending money, tourists, and political support. If Israel is our land, our homeland, given through divine authority, then Israel needs to start acting ethically towards the stranger, including the Palestinians and the immigrant workers, and mishpat echad yihyeh lachem – one law for all the Jews, not one law for the hareidim and screw everyone else. You cant have it both ways, it’s a the land of the Jews, and that means all of us, or it’s just another country, and thus needs to stop pretending that there are special rules that allow it to get away with crap. Pick one.
Rootless and Jonathan1 — people are ignoring your question because you’ve turned the premise on its head. We went from “my life is better out here” to you saying “how are you victimized?” If the choice is between staying here (being fine) and moving there (losing rights to marriage, divorce, burial, etc.), they choose freedom.
Jonathan1 would like to minimize the impact of that upon American Jews but if you dialed up the aliyah office and asked what obstacles they face in convincing folks to move, I’m absolutely certain that lack of religious freedom ranks up at the top. Second perhaps to the fact that the country has a reputation for suffering war.
How has no one given the Hobbes line props yet?
Thank you, sir. My pleasure.
If the choice is between staying here (being fine) and moving there (losing rights to marriage, divorce, burial, etc.), they choose freedom.
but if you dialed up the aliyah office and asked what obstacles they face in convincing folks to move, I’m absolutely certain that lack of religious freedom ranks up at the top
Are you telling us that there are scores of American Jews out there, waiting to move to Israel, if only the Rabbinate’s policies would change? Come on, dude, we all know that’s not the case. There are millions of Jews living in North America. Just about all of them will live in North America there entire lives.
Why? Because the USA is the most successful country on this earth, maybe in world history. There aren’t scores of American Jews out their, laying awake at night with anger, because they won’t be able to leave behind the unprecedented opportunity offered in America . . . if only the Rabbinate were to recognize Reform weddings.
Jonathan1 writes:
Are you telling us that there are scores of American Jews out there, waiting to move to Israel, if only the Rabbinate’s policies would change? Come on, dude, we all know that’s not the case.
Changing the rabbinate’s policies (and disestablishing the rabbinate as a governmental institution) is necessary but not sufficient. Just as ending slavery and segregation in the United States didn’t end racism (though ending slavery and segregation was still the right thing to do), ending the Israeli theocracy would not (at least immediately) change the fact that liberal Judaism is a marginal minority in Israeli society, and has not yet found a foothold as a living culture as separate from its institutions and leaders. (That is, if all the dati leumi rabbis disappeared one day, I suspect dati leumi life would go on as normal, and I’m not sure I could say the same about Israeli Reform rabbis.)
I hate to let you all in on the secret, but there are Reform and Masorti Jews in Israel.
You’re kidding?
But, again, the answer to the question: how is the Rabbinate’s anti-pluralistic stance victimizing Jews in America is: the Rabbinate’s anti-pluralistic stance is victimizing Jews in Israel.
But, again, the answer to the question: how is the Rabbinate’s anti-pluralistic stance victimizing Jews in America is: the Rabbinate’s anti-pluralistic stance is victimizing Jews in Israel.
The Rabbinate’s stance and the concessions made to the haredi minority continue to increase the distance between American Jews and Israel. If they keep this up, the only logical outcome will be that American Jews will be less and less likely to financially and politically support Israel, and in turn the US Government.
It sure isn’t going in the other direction, Jonathan. You may say that only a few non-Orthodox North American Jews want to emigrate to Israel, and that’s probably true. But the current policies (outlined by previous commentators) are only shrinking that number, not expanding it.
OK, how’s this: American Jews are potentially victimized in proportion to the extent that they have, or would like to have, a relationship with Israel. If you have an emotional connection to the country, then you’re emotionally harmed by the perception that the country is treating people like you poorly and inequally. If you have family in the country, then you’re potentially victimized as an extention of your family being victimized. If you visit often, then the problems are more painful because you see them often. If you’re otherwise inclined to make aliyah, you might rethink it because of these problems. And so on.
An American Jew with no relationship to Israel whatsoever, if such a creature exists in a vacuum, is not affected by the policies of the Rabbanut, I agree. (This is just a thought experiment, though, as everyone who intends to live a Jewish life is affected by all the zionists around in all Jewish communities, and by the perceptions of the greater world that Israel somehow, in some ways, represents Judaism.)
@ML.
I just don’t see how any of your points represent victimization of American Jews.
What I wrote, btw., is that only a few North American Jews (not non-Orthodox North American Jews) want to emigrate to Israel. So, we can agree on that.
But, is the lack of desire to emigrate from the USA considered victimization?
@ Desh.
Ok.
Miri,
As is often the case, I only located the perfect phrasing for what I wanted to say a few hours after posting. This re-phrasing might help explain more what I was getting at…
When I said there were benefits that Diaspora Jews get from Israel, like the benefits a first generation college student can provide his/her family, what I should have said was:
Diaspora Jews built Israel for the same reason parents who never went to college send their kids to college: so that their children can have opportunities they never had, and these opportunities can be used for the benefit of the entire family.
The opportunities include all the richness of homeland living that don’t exist to the same degree in the Diaspora. You’ll never see the potential of one slice of humanity until you concentrate it and give it room to flower. They also include things like being able to fight collectively for Jewish rights when they are violated, to oppress ourselves instead of having others oppress us, etc.
Desh – I’m curious about your feelings about Israel compared to your feelings about other centers of Jewish life that aren’t your own community.
CW, happy to have that conversation elsewhere. IM me or catch me in person sometime.
Sure, Israel may be focused on (some of) my history and (one of) my language(s). But Israeli culture and cuisine has little more to do with me than the culture and cuisine of the Jews of Uganda, France, or Shanghai.
Except that the Israeli versions of Jewish life are supported by a population of 5-6 million. And there’s a lot more movement and interaction between the Jews of Boston/USA and Israel than between the Jews of Boston/USA and the Jews of France or Shanghai.
Also, Israeli Jewish life is an amalgam of a whole lot of Diaspora Jewish realities. The Boston/USA input is there, even though it’s not dominant much of the time.
if you dialed up the aliyah office and asked what obstacles they face in convincing folks to move, I’m absolutely certain that lack of religious freedom ranks up at the top. Second perhaps to the fact that the country has a reputation for suffering war.
And here I thought Sam Green was the only green sprout. Call up Nefesh b’Nefesh. The biggest obstacles for Jews to make aliyah are:
1) Economic considerations
2) Family and Friendship ties
3) Language skills
4) Military service
Religious freedom? Are you kidding?! Please dig in your heels on this one, KFJ. I got a nice big slice of humble pie with your name on it getting warmed up.
As for why DAWM don’t like Israel and its Jews, we’ve covered this already.
CW, happy to have that conversation elsewhere. IM me or catch me in person sometime.
This line explains much about this particular forum.
Anonymouse — I have talked to the people at NBN, I have friends there. Dig your heels in, mouse.
Rabbinate’s anti-pluralistic stance is victimizing Jews in Israel.
Nobody wants to become victimized.
@BZ.
Again, what you write is true, but I’m not sure how any of this affects Jews in North America–ok, maybe it affects the 10 North American Jews who aren’t moving to Israel because of the problems outlined in this stream. But, North American Jews are not–almost universally–interested in leaving North America. That’s fine with me, but why do we have to pretend that they aren’t leaving because of the Israeli Rabbinate?
@KFJ.
They aren’t moving to Israel anyway; they wouldn’t be moving to Israel if Reform rabbis controlled the Rabbinate; that’s why it isn’t victimization.
Why is everyone falling over themselves to deal with this victimization question? I mean, I guess it’s an interesting question, or whatever, but how did it become THE question that we all must answer on this thread? It doesn’t seem to relate that closely to the original post.
For the record: as long as the American Reform and Conservative Jews remain in America, I don’t imagine that their rabbenut-initiated victimization is too extraordinarily strong (though there are certainly issues). But again, this matters here…why?
But again, this matters here…why?
Because the comments on this thread are the steryotypical “I can’t move to Israel because of such and such policies” from people who have no intention of moving there to begin with, which is just a bit patronizing to the few people who actually do move to Israel–despite the myriad of difficulties in living there (which includes problems with the Rabbinate.)
And, the response to this point is that the Rabbinate actually oppresses Jews living in North America . . . . which obviously makes no sense.
Few things are more pathetic than a crooning “We’ve been victimized” chorus. But this thread has it in spades. Poor, poor baby victims…
>>“but if you dialed up the aliyah office and asked what obstacles they face in convincing folks to move, I’m absolutely certain that lack of religious freedom ranks up at the top.
—Kung Fu Jew · April 15th, 2010 at 11:45 pm”
“Lack of religious freedom”??! What planet are you living on??? If that’s why people ‘won’t move to Israel’ it shows only how ignorant they are, and how earnestly they’ve swallowed that bit of activist propaganda.
It’s sad that most of the commenters are claiming “victim” status instead of admitting the real issue: they want validation.
I have talked to the people at NBN, I have friends there. Dig your heels in, mouse.
Yes, we all have friends in NBN. So you maintain that “religious freedom” is a prime motivator for Jews not making aliyah, KFJ? More so than economic considerations, family ties, language skills and military service?
I’m just dumbfounded by how you’re willing to twist the truth to whatever obscene extent you feel is necessary to bully your point across. I’m embarrassed for you. It’s so… dishonest and crusty, Federation-style.
Clearly the vast majority of diaspora Jews complaining about Orthodox control of the Israeli rabbinate would never move there anyway. (I’m not saying there aren’t Reform and Conservative Jews for whom this is the main reason for not making aliyah; these people may very well exist though I’ve never met one).
And so folks in here are essentially asking the State of Israel to accommodate their mode of religious practice out of respect or in the spirit of inclusiveness, even if said mode of religious practice barely actually exists in Israel and is actually abhorrent to many Israeli Jews (secular and Orthodox alike).
I totally 100% understand this sentiment and think it’s normal. Desh said it very honestly: “If you have an emotional connection to the country, then you’re emotionally harmed by the perception that the country is treating people like you poorly and inequally.” I get that.
But why not just *say* that then? There’s a gang of people in here who are just plain-and-simply not arguing in good faith. They’re trying to paint the Israeli gov’t’s favoring of Orthodoxy as a reason for not moving there, when this is so very clearly a smokescreen given that they’re not moving there anyway. The real issue is that these people feel slighted/insulted by a country to whom they donate so much energy and resources. Again, this is totally understandable as far as it goes. What bugs me is that some people in here won’t just come out and admit it; instead they want to pretend that the Israeli gov’t favoring Orthodoxy is actually preventing them from moving there.
I must admit, though, that there is a certain beauty to the argument: After all, Reform and Conservative Jews in the diaspora can claim earnestly that they refrain from making aliyah because there is no accommodation in Israel for their mode of religious practice. And those (like me) who sense that this is a disingenuous argument can never really know. Because these people really never WILL move there. And accommodation of their mode of religious practice will of course never come about in Israel because these very Jews who feel so strongly about it aren’t moving there. So they can continue to claim that the absence of said accommodation is the reason they don’t move there. Great.
More so than economic considerations, family ties, language skills and military service?
The reason is that America is a great place to live, and most Jews in America don’t consider leaving at all–nothing to do with any of these reasons.
But, I agree that KFJ is out on a limb with this unusual theory.
There’s a gang of people in here who are just plain-and-simply not arguing in good faith. They’re trying to paint the Israeli gov’t’s favoring of Orthodoxy as a reason for not moving there…
Who on this thread is actually doing that? It’s a long thread. I might’ve missed it. But I don’t remember anyone actually saying that; just people reading that into other people’s hypotheticals (like DAMW’s about Reform rabbis).
@Desh.
KFJ wrote:
Jonathan1 would like to minimize the impact of that upon American Jews but if you dialed up the aliyah office and asked what obstacles they face in convincing folks to move, I’m absolutely certain that lack of religious freedom ranks up at the top
DAMW wrote:
I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: I’m not gonna move somewhere that sucks just so I can help fix it. If I’m perfectly happy and free to be the Jew I am here, why should I go somewhere else?
84 comments and no Godwin’s Law yet?
Good job, people!!!
Hi Desh!
DAMW wrote: “I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: I’m not gonna move somewhere that sucks just so I can help fix it. If I’m perfectly happy and free to be the Jew I am here, why should I go somewhere else?”
I am not sure anyone answered and this is what drives me crazy about Jewschool. Zionism – with all of the many mistakes and problems made in its history – is an ideology of collective responsibility in its essence. It doesn’t make any sense for Zionism to try to answer the question ‘How can we improve the individual lives of well-educated Jews from safe, democratic prosperous countries?’ and that’s why I hate Nefesh B’Nefesh (topic for another time).
The State of Israel – with all of its flaws and hideous moral failings well-documented on Jewschool – has to answer difficult situations in reality which aspiring Reform rabbis in New York, among others, are not called upon to answer.
For example, various waves of Jewish immigration have been super imperfectly absorbed into Israeli society and it seems we can all name the fuckups on the way. I haven’t seen much on Jewschool about how the American Jewish community handled the immigration of Soviet Jews, Holocaust survivors or whoever you like because the American Jewish community today doesn’t function at all like a collective entity where each individual understands that he has a responsibility to a poor Jew from another country who might show up in his town. There are still some power structures and donors, important and problematic, around from a different era where this principle was at least partially enshrined among American Jews, but young Jews today as KFJ trumpets don’t feel any connection to them because they are part of a highly individualistic culture. Even very good social justice organizations, are not usually based on this principle of comprehensive responsibility.
I know all about how profoundly this ideology has nearly disintegrated in Israel and its social and organizational foundations have been ravished, but it’s still far more present here certainly than in the glorious USA where I am thrilled to say your Reform career will flourish.
Even very good social justice organizations, are not usually based on this principle of comprehensive responsibility.
How so? I think the evidence is quite the contrary.
Sam Green really dodged a bullet with the direction this thread has taken.
“rootlesscosmo” — You mean the direction of telling Reform Jews they should move to Israel, and then launching a red herring debate when they say they’d rather not?
You mean the direction of telling Reform Jews they should move to Israel, and then launching a red herring debate when they say they’d rather not?
What are you talking about?
@Jonathan1 The original article and critique had nothing to do with Reform Jews or Judaism in Israel. We all know most American Jews won’t move to Israel. And that fact has nothing to do with the original post.
@ML. So?
The first comment, by DAWM was this:
Word, dude.
“Israel is a place where all Jews are welcome to live and work.”
What if I want to live there and work as a Reform Rabbi? I’m certainly not welcome to do that. It’s possible, but not particularly welcoming.
Should we not respond to a comment because it has “nothing to do with the original post?”
DAMW wrote: “I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again: I’m not gonna move somewhere that sucks just so I can help fix it. If I’m perfectly happy and free to be the Jew I am here, why should I go somewhere else?”
What happened to “tikkun olam”? I thought the Reform and Conservative movements were all into the very thing DAMW just rejected doing.
No, go ahead and respond. But don’t act mystified when not everyone else wants to beat the dead horse with you. Or others want to discuss something other than your chosen point of consideration. That’s all.
I’m not mystified. If you want to discuss something else, be my guest.
If EV wants to make up opposing arguments to suit his points, that’s fine too, but I’ll challenge him on it–as I’m sure he’d challenge me.
Oh my, how did this thread get so off course. Sam Green claimed that non-Zionist Jews were abandoning their Jewish identity and supporting terrorism. A claim which he reiterated in a recent new voices blog post. KFJ took him to task. Now we are arguing about whether reform Jews are victims of the rabbinate? The impossibility of religious freedom in israel is a problem and a fundamental injustice (not because reform Jews in America are victims, but because no responsible theory of just government can justify such a theocracy). The bigger injustice, and the one that has produces scores of victims, is the ethnocratic nature of israel. It is this element that most non-Zionist Jews are contesting. To focus on the problems of the rabbinate really is wining from a position of privalege, because it changes the focus from the violent oppression of Palestinians to the lack of civil rights for liberal Jews. Sam’s attempt to discredit the Jewish identity of non-Zionist Jews and this debate about the rabbinate both serve to cover over the most heinious crime that israel is comitting every day.
CoA, “heinous”? Really? HEINOUS?! For G-d’s sake, you people need a REAL struggle in your lives. When inconvenience begets “heinous(!!!)”, it’s time to cut down on the whores and caviar.
I’ve been waiting a few days for the back and forth to calm down a bit before postulating the following, because I want an honest answer from the Reform stalwarts: Are you exaggerating, deliberately or otherwise, Israeli “theocracy” specifically to frighten American Jews from making aliyah?
Maybe “frighten” is the wrong word. Discourage, dispirit, discomfort… I mean, most of you have been to Israel. You know very well that it is a highly (hyper-) pluralistic society that tolerates obscenities which would be banned in any suburban American community. You know very well that, in areas where American Jews are, Reform and Conservative places of worship do exist, and not in single digits, just as churches and mosques dot the landscape.
Just about the only difference between American Reform and Israeli Reform is that in Israel, the liturgy is, predictably, in Hebrew. Strangely enough, that small difference makes the liturgy actually recognizable to those of us from more traditional streams. You know, just as well, that Israel is not a theocracy, that the rabbinate’s authority is strictly confined, that civil marriages and civil unions have the full status of marriage, and that the situation is a fluid one, given Israel’s democratic nature.
So, I am left wondering, why would anyone who knows the reality create such a dishonest portrait of the situation? There is a grain of truth, fertilized by a truckload of distortions. Why? Is this what Reform congregations are institutionally hearing about Israel? Is this language projecting from the pulpit? Is there some fear in the Reform community that, given Zionism’s hold over the largely unobservant masses, marginally affiliated Jews would rather make aliyah than strengthen the local Reform temple? Is there an unspoken effort to fight a perceived or anticipated exodus?
Strangely enough, people like KFJ, strong believers in the Diaspora, are closer to my mind than aliyah-pushers. I can only conceive of making aliyah for marriage, or work, or a calamity – G-d forbid – that required my body to remedy. The Zionist allure pulls, but family and local responsibilities tug harder. Yet, I can’t imagine myself so bitterly spreading falsehood to further my vision of a strong diaspora.
So, why?
@Anonymouse.
I think that COA is using the word “heinous” to describe the situation in the territories, not the situation with the Rabbinate.
But, agreed, he/she is putting words into others’ mouths by writing that people here are trying to deflect focus on the territories by instead writing only of the Rabbinate . . . which is not true at all, per this stream.
Nobody is trying to deflect attention from the situation in the territories (COA). Nobody is defending the Rabbinate’s policies, or demanding that Reform Jews move to Israel (EV). Nobody is blaming Reform Jews for the problems with the Rabbinate (KFJ), nobody is saying that this topic is the main point of this piece (ML).
Some of us are simply stating that: if you live in America, be honest about your life being in America, and admit that events in Israel (no matter how Jewishly-involved we see ourselves) effect you only in superficial ways.
I want an honest answer from the Reform stalwarts: Are you exaggerating, deliberately or otherwise, Israeli “theocracy” specifically to frighten American Jews from making aliyah?
From making aliyah? Probably not. From politically and financially supporting Israel? More and more all the time.
Anonymouse writes:
civil marriages and civil unions have the full status of marriage
That’s true of civil marriages/unions from other countries, but Israel doesn’t have civil marriages/unions of its own.
I thought a civil union bill passed the Knesset already.
Anyway, heads up on a very similar conversation at Yaacov Lozowick’s, including the (current) last comment, made by a “Conservative rabbi who served a congregation in Israel, studied at Bar-Ilan University, lived in a religious neighborhood, blah blah blah”, about the inability of Conservative and Reform to “go native” in a culture where most people are Conservative/Reform in practice, but not in membership.
Very interesting back and forth, with more firsthand details from Israelis themselves, for those who want to continue the conversation.
I thought a civil union bill passed the Knesset already.
Ok, my bad, there are now civil unions available between Israelis not registered as any religious identity. But this doesn’t help people who are registered as “Jewish” or anything else.
a culture where most people are Conservative/Reform in practice, but not in membership
I think you mean that most American Jews are secular in practice, but Conservative/Reform in membership.
No no, I am referring to the remarks of that Conservative Rabbi about Israeli society (follow the Yaakov link above). He essentially said that Israelis are, in practice, more Conservative/Reform than Orthodox. In other words, their day to day actions conform more with being released from certain commandments and obligations, which are institutionalized in the US within the Reform/Conservative movements. Despite this, Israelis don’t seek out institutions that conform to their level of observance. So, they might not keep shabbos, but they want an Orthodox Rabbi presiding at their wedding, etc.
He also mentioned that the concepts of denominationalism and establishmentarianism that structured how we conceptualize American Jewish movements are absent, or very different in Israel, and that this is why these movements have such problems growing roots in Israeli society. Even brought in a research citation.
He seems a scholarly sort of type that you may enjoy talking to, BZ.
In other words, their day to day actions conform more with being released from certain commandments and obligations, which are institutionalized in the US within the Reform/Conservative movements. Despite this, Israelis don’t seek out institutions that conform to their level of observance. So, they might not keep shabbos, but they want an Orthodox Rabbi presiding at their wedding, etc.
To flesh out my comment, what I mean is that both secular Israeli Jews and many Reform/Conservative-affiliated American Jews implicitly see Orthodox Judaism as authentic Judaism and see themselves as being at a lower “level of observance”. So yes, these two populations have a lot in common. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with Reform or Conservative Judaism as religious ideologies.
Do you think most Israelis don’t value denominationalism the way American Jews do?
Just out of curiosity, if someone were to ask you, BZ, what faith you belong to, would you say, “I’m a Jew” or “I’m a Reform Jew”?
Do you think most Israelis don’t value denominationalism the way American Jews do?
Complaining about “denominationalism” in this context seems to mean “Why can’t we just all be Orthodox?” in the same way that complaining about “partisanship” means “Why can’t we just all be Republican?”
Is it a complaint? The concept of denominations is very developed in America, but it’s not so clear cut elsewhere. It took me essentially joining a denomination to understand that there was a difference. Coming from the Soviet Union, my father didn’t know there was a difference between Reform and Orthodox shuls, despite passively attending services in both for almost two decades. He just never paid that much attention, there was some language barrier, but mostly he just assumed it was all basically the same.
You’re in a very specialized, focused mindset, BZ, where a single adjective can act as a denominational dogwhistle in a bicentennial civil war. Most Jews don’t think this way; certainly almost all Jews outside the US don’t think this way.
That’s not a complaint, it’s an observation.
If someone were to ask you, BZ, what faith you belong to, would you say, “I’m a Jew” or “I’m a Reform Jew”?
The former. Why?
I am wondering if you consider Judaism and Reform Judaism to be different religions. In past conversations, and reading some of what you’ve written, I’ve gotten then impression that you see such a split as the endgame of Reform.
Anonymouse-
I’m going to let you figure out the fallacy with what you’ve written all by yourself.
I think you mean that most American Jews are secular in practice, but Conservative/Reform in membership.
I don’t even think this is correct. I think most American Jews are secular in practice and hold no membership in any denomination.
54% of American Jews don’t belong to synagogues, 33% belong to a Reform or Conservative one, and everyone else belongs to another type. Depending on how you define “secular in practice”, though, most American Jews aren’t. (59% fast on Yom Kippur, for example.)