Taking one for the team
ynet reports,
Some of the long range rockets that were fired at Israel Wednesday noon landed across the Green Line, in the West Bank. The rockets fell near the Palestinian village of Pqua, in the Jenin area.
Ynet has learned that parts of the rockets fell off while they were in transit, but caused no injuries or damage.
The rockets’ landing site in the Palestinian territories is the most southern point Hizbullah has managed to hit so far. A week and a half ago, an improved Fajr-5 rocket landed in Afula.
[…] A Fatah member related that local residents cheered when they heard the rocket fall and saw the resulting flames. “Even if it were to fall on our heads, it wouldn’t have spoiled our joy. All of us here are praying for Hizbullah’s success and victory,” he said.
Do we need yet more convincing that Hezbollah has no compunction martyring civilians, or that, in some cases, civilians are more than happy to be martyred themselves?
No, and we never did Mobius. Was there ever a time when anyone mistakenly thought the Arabs gave a shit about one another? “Arab Brotherhood” is the most absurd expression (and name for a terrorist group) of all time.
Oh, wait, excuse me: “Muslim Brotherhood” – even better.
It’s nice to know. It’s better to act accordingly.
Wo what’re you saying, CR? That Arabs are just incapable of caring about one another, eh? They’re not like you and me? A bit savage, perhaps?
Are you at all familiar with the word racism?
Matt-
It’s you who came up with the idea that Arabs are “incapable” of caring about one another. The rest of us are simply aware that right now, and for a good while previously, many Arabs have been behaving in a certain way. Namely, savagely (and not just a bit). There’s nothing racist about this at all (and if there was, the only way to avoid a charge of “racism” would be to claim that all groups in the world behave exactly alike at all times, an absurd position). In fact, part of my anger directed at Arab behavior is that Arabs are in fact capable of better things, and yet behave as they do.
This isn’t a college campus. You don’t win arguments by cheap accusations of racism. Make your argument about how the above critics of the Arabs are wrong, or agree with their conclusions.
Hmm. This reminds me of something…it’s on the tip of my tongue. Lemme think. Some Palestinians living under occupation would prefer to get bombed by Hizbollah…hmm…what DOES this remind me of…?
Oh! Wait! I’ve got it! Some dude named Eleazar, in some place called Masada!
J, this isn’t a college campus? How silly of me! I could have sworn…the leafy trees, the nice quad…
But putting aside your snide dismissal, look at what CR wrote. Was there ever a time when anyone mistakenly thought the Arabs gave a shit about one another? That says that Arabs don’t care about each other. It’s a blanket statement about an entire race and their capacity for fellow feeling. It’s not about how many Arabs are acting right now. It goes far beyond the article Mobius posted about how a group of Arabs in the West Bank reacted to a missle fired by Hezbollah. It’s about “the Arabs.”
How is that NOT racist?! Explain to me what’s “cheap” about it. You want me to explain how CR is wrong? I can explain it in every Arab I know who gives a shit about other Arabs, and about non-Arabs. I find CR’s dismissal of them to be shameful.
J has this idea that it’s okay to make blanket statements about entire groups of people as long as you refrain from going the final steps to biological essentialism. He thinks it is given to certain individuals, provided they maintain the proper critical distance, to make judgments about cultures, since cultures are changeable and therefore unlike biology, which is unchangeable.
Where this critical distance comes from, and what qualifies as a culture, is never something I have been too clear on.
Matt-
You read too much into CR’s comment, I think. It’s a quick one-liner. I don’t think it’s meant to be read as a condemnation of every Arab on the face of the earth, or as going back in time beyond the last few decades. Of course, only CR can tell you for sure; I can only read what’s posted here. Again, there’s no reason to bring “capacity” into this.
Sam-
Obviously, you’re tapping into a set of long-running arguments that are difficult to discuss in a couple of paragraphs. But let me say this: First, I don’t care for the notion that I “refrain from going the final steps to biological essentialism”. It’s not some slippery slope leading into racism. I see a very strong distinction between criticizing a race and criticizing a culture. Second, I don’t assume that anyone, including myself, has perfect (or even really good) knowledge or objectivity about anything, including the status of cultures. The best of us – the smartest, most honest, most informed, most moral – are going to make some major mistakes over the course of a lifetime. But what are the options? Throw our hands up and give up on trying to understand anything about the world? Bear in mind that the arguments you use above – that pure critical distance is impossible, that the concept of culture is not well defined – can easily be applied to attack the truth of any piece of human knowledge, including any made by you (including, even, your own argument above). It’s as if we were squabbling neighbors, and you decided to finish me off once and for all by dropping a nuke on my house. Well, the good news is, you got me… but the bad news…
So far as we know, we live once, briefly. Better to use our flawed minds to make some attempt at understanding, rather than giving up because we can’t get it all right. So back to logic, evidence, arguments, facts…
J–
You write that you “see a very strong distinction between criticizing a race and criticizing a culture. ” It is not cultural analysis to say that “the Arabs” don’t give a shit about one another. That is a blanket statement about a racial/ethnic group estimated to include 250-300 million people with a wide range of cultures living in a huge geographic area. “The Arabs” have rural and urban cultures and a range of religions (including Judaism, BTW!).
The fact that CR’s comment was a “quick one-liner” is irrelevant. Is a “quick one-liner” about how Jews are scheming and deceitful something you’d simply shrug off? (Or, for that matter, would you write it off as cultural analysis if someone presented examples of deceitful Jews?)
” It is not cultural analysis to say that “the Arabs†don’t give a shit about one another.”
It’s not good enough for a book or an essay. It is good enough for one line on an internet forum, provided it’s understood that it’s a broad generalization with many exceptions and qualifications.
“Is a “quick one-liner†about how Jews are scheming and deceitful something you’d simply shrug off?”
I would say that there’s not enough truth in the statement to support such a generalization. I do believe there’s enough truth in the earlier statement about Arabs to justify it as a generalization.
“(Or, for that matter, would you write it off as cultural analysis if someone presented examples of deceitful Jews?)”
I wouldn’t let a handful of examples concerning any large population decide my general opinion of said population. I agreed with the Arab generalization not because of the latest display of murderous attitudes on the part of Palestinians but because that display is of a piece with so many other things we know about them.
Well, goo to know where you stand, J. I strongly disagree, and consider it racist. Perhaps we’ll have to leave it at that.
I’m curious. How would you be able to say anything negative (or positive, for that matter) about any group without being racist?
Well, I wouldn’t make generalizations about an entire ethnic group. If I were to comment on a particular culture (and as I said above, “the Arabs” are many cultures), I would make it very specific and give evidence. And I would look at how my own biases likely informed it, remembering the “fundamental attribution error,” as it’s called in social psychology–that we often ascribe negative motivations to others while making excuses for ourselves.
And I wouldn’t say anything so absurd, easily disproved, and dehumanizing as that an entire people don’t give a shit for one another.
Mobius wrote: “Do we need yet more convincing … that, in some cases, civilians are more than happy to be martyred themselves?”
After his death Trumpeldor became the symbol of Jewish self-defence, and his memorial day on the 11th day of Adar is officially noted in Israel every year. His last words, “Never mind, it is good to die for our country” (Ein davar, tov lamut be’ad artzeinu), have become famous in Israel. He is regarded as a hero by both right wing and left wing Zionists. The Revisionist Zionist movement named its youth movement, Betar (future Likud Party) after him while the left wing Hashomer Hatzair remembers Trumpledor as the defender of its kibbutzim and has established memorials in his honour. The town of Kiryat Shmona (“City of Eight”) is named after Trumpledor and the seven others who died defending Tel Hai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Trumpeldor
“Well, I wouldn’t make generalizations about an entire ethnic group. ”
Never? Not even “there’s something wrong with the Germans” circa 1935, or “the Europeans have a problem with witches” circa 1670, or “the Aztecs have an interesting way of pruning the population” circa 1500?
“If I were to comment on a particular culture (and as I said above, “the Arabs†are many cultures), I would make it very specific and give evidence.”
Fine and good, when you write an essay or book. But if someone summarized that book and accurately represented your negative conclusions about a certain group, would that be wrong?
“And I would look at how my own biases likely informed it, remembering the “fundamental attribution error,†as it’s called in social psychology–that we often ascribe negative motivations to others while making excuses for ourselves.”
No problem with that.
“And I wouldn’t say anything so absurd, easily disproved, and dehumanizing as that an entire people don’t give a shit for one another. ”
Well, OK. Now we’ve reached the point where the problem is in the truth (or degree of truth) in the statement, rather than the problem being that criticism of a group automatically equals racism. Which was my point. (And good move not to go with the post-modern dodge.) However, I find it hard to believe that you think the statement about Arabs is really absurd and easily disproved (overbroad and somewhat exaggerated, I’ll accept).
Haha, that’s a rather funny headline, Mobius.
I’ll take it a step further. This is demagoguery at work. Like many other terrorist leaders, Hassan Nasrallah is a coward who stands behind tough rhetoric in order to pursuade followers to take a bullet or a missile for his sake. It’s for the sake of the “cause”! The problem is that this ideology of martyrdom has become so widespread in Islam and the Arab world. This is because there is poor leadership that couldn’t give 2 shits about their people so Islamist rabble rousers or guys in groups like Al Aqsa step in and brainwash the people. They wine and dine the poor people, gain populist support, and ultimately exploit their followers.
That’s a general picture in a nutshell, but my point is that it not racist to say that a people’s culture currently has a major problem. Some say that about Western culture!
I think smoot’s comment, that “this ideology of martyrdom has become so widespread in Islam and the Arab world,” is of a more defensibile form than the statement J and Matt are debating, “Arabs don’t give a shit about one another.” The first statement is time-bound, and refers to the success of a phenomenon rather than attempting to characterize a people.
I agree with Matt that any sentence that includes “The Arabs” is going to run into problems on a factual level when it comes to its truth-value, unless it is something tautological such as “The Arabs speak Arabic.” People from Jenin think they have a different culture than people from Nablus, just as Israelis joke about the differences in culture between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. The reductivism inherent in the generalizations we’re talking about poses problems for precisely the “logic, evidence, facts” that J wants to address. Simply put, something so reductive can almost never be correct.
J definately makes a fool of himself with his racist generaliation. No, the statement is not just an adolesant ‘exaggeration’.
Really the word ‘terrorism’ is almost totally devoid of meaning–at best, it means ‘violence that I do not agree with’.
Don’t like ‘terrorism’, then stop supporting it. Pretty simply in theory–but transcending your masculinist desire to smash in the face of your opponent takes a degree of wisdom and intelligence that most humans have evolved into yet.
i choose to not let conniving masculinist war-mongers advance the possibliity that nuclear radiation will end my life–and for this I am accused of being for ‘the terrorists’. Go figure.
It’s actually fun to watch the left twist and turn when one makes valid comments about the twisted, perverted mulsim culture (sometimes known as the Religion of Peace – ROP), as gerneralizations, racism yada yada yada yet at the same time attack “rightists” for being racist, homophobic, and on and on. Can’t have it both ways dude; of course by refusing to allow for cultural/religious comments, it becomes impossible for any analysis to occur (no more “ancient Greeks represented the highest level of achievment in their era”, “blacks have suffered dissproportionately from racism and their culture is a result”), we are left with the only valid comment being those describing individuals.
Sorry, leftists haven’t yet been able to make it a crime to draw common sense lessons from the reality around us – there is something about the Muslim religion, its preaching of hatred, its exhultation of war, its denigration of non Muslims, its hatred of Jews and Xtians, that creates the Muslim popular opinion that supports the murder of babies, the beheading of human beings, the terrorism that the world has had to live with for the last few decades. The ROP is horribly flawed – either it reforms, or it should be destroyed.
And before I’m described as a warmonger, I am not suggesting physical violence. How bout Xtians and Jews funding a massive campaign to convert Muslims to Xtianity? How about only dealing with democratic Muslim leaders, and totally ostracise CAIR, etc.? How bout prohibiting the importation of radical Whabbism into the US by forbidding the Saudis to continue funding radical mosques? How bout prohibiting radical Muslims from being employed as prison immans? We have to do something, let’s get going.
dirrigible – It’s easy to do all the things you said. Just get a rabbi to write a book about all the things the qur’an copied from the Talmud. That should prove the qur’an is not a divine scripture.
It’s too bad no-one has done this so far except for a few oriental scholars. If you want to win this war against radical islam this is one of the arenas where you’ll need to fight. I am living proof that critical inquiry into islam will weaken it.
dirrigible wrote: “And before I’m described as a warmonger, I am not suggesting physical violence. How bout Xtians and Jews funding a massive campaign to convert Muslims to Xtianity? “
That was tried before. It was called the crusades, and it was a massive failure and got us where we are today.
dirrigible wrote: “How about only dealing with democratic Muslim leaders, and totally ostracise CAIR, etc.?”
CAIR is not Anti-democratic as far as I know. As far as only dealing with Democratic Muslim leaders
1) America and the West in general have long intentionally supported dictators in the middle east as a way to control resources, because it’s good for business
2) Even if the above were not true, cutting off contact seems unlikely to make things better. Look how that approach hasworked with Cuba for instance
dirrigible continued: “How bout prohibiting the importation of radical Whabbism into the US by forbidding the Saudis to continue funding radical mosques? How bout prohibiting radical Muslims from being employed as prison immans?”
I don’t see how we can directly interfere in the interpretation of religion and still claim to stand for religious freedom. Do you care to explain how those two concepts could coexist ?
I think Palestinian society scores pretty low on the “valuing life” scale, but I’m not sure this incident proves it. How, for examp,e would you respond to this challenge: “54 soldiers have been killed in Israel’s war on Hizbullah. Nothing could be worth the life of single Jew.” Agree or disagree?
The Qana Massacre in south Lebanon teaches the Palestinians that attacking Israel will cost lots of Palestinian civilians’ lives… maybe attacking Israel will lead to the annihilation of the Palestinian people. But sure the STUBID ZIONESTS forgot that DEATH is not prohibited on them… and annihilation will hit those Zionists who occupy Palestine…
They will not only will die or killed but also will be cursed and damned not only in this life, and every one knows that, but also in the life after.
There is a question in Quraan for the Zionist Jews and Christians…. It says… if you say that you are the beloved ones by god and Semitic people (sons of god) then why the pathetic weak believers (Palestinians and Lebanese) TORTURE AND KILL YOU?
JB, I can’t write out a whole manifesto here, and perhaps many of my ideas will run into practical problems, come up with some better ideas. (And btw, the Crusades were physical, since there seem to be plenty of evangellicals willing to run around and risk their lives for their faith, lets fund their journey to Muslim lands and put them to work).