nah, it’s not humaneness that lets one be manipulated by emotions. the humane approach is to apply some thoughtfulness to viewing the pain. if i believe that following general sharon’s strategy is obligatory (and might even have merit), then i can smile sadly at those suffering now – just as i can smile sadly when my child is hurting while reluctantly following my parental guidance.

Hey Mo, they [the settlers] had no right to be there. It was not part of the UN-mandate of ’48 which clearly defined those areas as Arab land.
It is sad to see. And it pisses me off that the kids have to suffer their parents misguided zealotry. Not fair.

C’mon comrades, lets be silent.
As the post stated, it doesn’t matter wether you’re for or against the disengagement – either way there are Jews here who are suffering, and we must be in solidarity with their pain.
From a pro-disengagement position, their pain is part of the sacrifice that we are making for peace. “Land for peace” : this means ‘we will trade something that is valuable to us – Holy Land where Jewish communities live – in exchange for something that is more valuable to us – peace’.
If their pain is not our pain, and we don’t care for the loss that is those communities, then a proper trade is not being conducted (and we will have to trade something else for peace)
SHALOM
amen amen amen

after asaf’s post, i’m damn near giving up hope that an internet community can achieve peace. can’t we just have a moment of silence? (i hear you ezra.) anytime people are crying or suffering, for whatever reason, we need to feel it. period. case closed.
i can’t even imagine *not* feeling horrible for everyone somehow involved in this situation…

Asaf, do you have any proof that any of the communities in Gaza, or for that matter in Judea and Samaria were built on a land that was previously populated by the Arabs? I bet you could not come up with a single proof, because all of the “settlements” were built on empty land. I know you are gloating at what’s happening to our people in Gaza, just as one day I’ll be gloating when this happens to the arab enemy that has infested the land of Israel. If the so called “ethnic cleansing” can be perpetrated against the Jews, it surely can and should be perpetrated against the Arabs.

Frankly,
the sympathy should not be directed entirely on the settlers. The entire Jewish nation is affected by this expulsion, no matter how much you want to distance yourself with ‘I told you’ or ‘they had no right to be there’ self-righteousness.
The world and the Arabs see a specific message: Jewish stormtroopers (who the hell chose to give the police black uniforms(!) which are so uncharacteristic of Israel?!) removing Jews from their homes, Jews succumbing to terrorism, and Israel admitting that all territory is up for graps (Kfar Darom was founded long before the state of Israel) even land that was purchased by Jews legally under international law. (an ignored fact is that some of the land is not ‘state/crown lands’ but rather privately owned in all sense of the term).
Another interesting thing is that there was a definite change in reporting of the Israeli reporters (most of whom had never been to Gush Katif before and never mingled with the residents (or too many other religious Jews for that matter)) before Sunday and especially today and between those people/commentators sitting in the the air-conditioned studios in Tel Aviv/Jerusalem/Herzilia h. I sensed a strong sense of ‘what have we done’ in a few reporters broadcasts while those in the studio continued with their disdain. On one occaision, a studio yuppie made an off-hand comment about settlers, and the reporter clearly defended them against this attack.

BTW,
I’ve hung up Mobius’ blue/orange icon with orange and blue ribbons at work on the bulletin board and on my settler doorpost.
The reprecussions of this weeks expulsion will be felt in the short-term and especially in the long term. The expulsion and the way it was carried out speedily and without the extreme care that was demanded and warned ahead of time essential, has essentially polarized a large part of Israeli society. The left might think that it is succeeding at destroying the Jewish/religious segregation and defending the secular/elitist control of the country, but the opposite has occured. The farce of Israeli democarcy, legislative system, court system, and media was exposed and is not deniable anymore.
If there are elections in the future, instead of seeing the trend of larger centralized parties which started in the recent past, you will see the ‘real’ right gain much more power.
Asaf, enjoy the gloating while you can. We know your breed will soon be extinct.

Asaf,
Btw, what makes the settlers hypocritical?

the same people advocating transfer are now calling their own situation transfer. Following your own logic, if one ethnic cleansing is alright, whats the biggie if its done to jewish? this is hypocracy.
Talking about human rights while being the justification for the oppression of the palestinians – that is hypocracy.
then there is the issue of democracy. The same settlers who have been the pioneers of the undemocratic occupation and the pawns of the undemocratic military regime, are now talking about a faulty democratic process and so on and so forth. this is hypocracy.
these people’s lifestyle has brought destruction and much pain upon the palestinians. 7000 settlers among more than a million palestinians have brought upon it fragmentation and isolation by barriers and the creation of a military ghetto surrounding. in the west bank, the existence of settlers from the jordan river to the green line has made it impossible to create a real barrier between jews and palestinians, if that was indeed the intended goal. Instead of a wall of security we got a wall of land annexation and land and water theft. The settlers have made it impossible for israel to be a secure place. ironically, originally the argument was that these settlements were for military reasons. now that the military is removing the settlements, we are supposed to be appalled. this is hypocracy.
I am not putting all the blame on the settlers. It is the governments, both labor and likud who supported the settlements projects all the way through, and now we are paying the price. But i have no pity for them. if i do, its for their children.

asaf, read my top post on o.a.
while i agree in some capacity, it’s fallacious to suggest that every settler is kahanist advocating transfer. it’s unlikely that even more than a slim minority adovcate transfer.

Very ugly sentiment, josh. Asaf’s “breed” is all of us, you included.
SheikhYahudi, the fact that the policy — settling Israeli citizens in territories that no Israeli government would ever annex — was never brought before the Israeli electorate in the form of a referrendum to begin with, and now the lack of a referrendum over disengagement is supposed to signal a lack of democracy is enough to saturate the entire settlement policy in hypocrisy.
Families are leaving homes they built on land beyond the territorial limits of the state that put them there. It’s a hard thing to endure emotionally, but there should be a limit to our sympathies. The settlers must, or at the very least should, have seen it coming from miles away.

Zionista,
You say:
“settling Israeli citizens in territories that no Israeli government would ever annex”
That is not true. When the kind of people who are being dragged out of their homes right now (the religious zionists) finally take over the Israeli gov’t (and it will happen due to a variety of reasons, including demographic), they will annex all of Judea, Samaria and Gaza and expel the hostile population. Afterall, Arik Sharon is setting the precedent for what the left calls “ethnic cleansing”. Which brings me to the next point: the hypocrisy I’m alluding to is the hypocrisy of the left which approves a policy of the Israeli gov’t goes against their definition of morality and human rights. You are correct about the lack of democracy that exists in Israel, most of the decision are made without the consent of the Israeli electorate, and that includes both building and removing settlements.
You say:
“Families are leaving homes they built on land beyond the territorial limits”
Who set those limits? The international community? The United Nations? Frankly, their opinion matters as much to me, as that of a self-righteous humanist who vigoursly opposes an “ethnic cleansing” of the Arabs, while vigorously suppurting an “ethnic cleansing” against the Jews.

josh, you surprise me.
Two years ago I was sent like all my friends to army duty. If I would have been drafted I would have been sent to the hills in the middle of nowhere and to the gaza strip (where there are more soldiers than settlers) in order to defend a piece of land. so many soldiers have died in the netzarim checkpoint and gaza strip for no reason at all. If you love your jewish brothers and sisters that much, how come you believe they should risk their lives over a piece of land? Isn’t our life more important than a piece of rock?
Is it the jewish people that you love or a piece of the earth?

Asaf’s comments are disgusting. It is not a matter of who is right here; it is painful to see people, especially fellow Jews, forcefully removed from their homes even if they had illegally settled on Palestinian land. They had made lives for themselves there, and they made no effort to make life harder for the Palestinians. Someone such as Asaf who claims to be sensitive to suffering everywhere should not be incapable of having sympathy for the people of Gush Katif. Asaf is just cruel and coldhearted, and is not really a humanist as he claims to be.
I’m in favor of disengagement, but it is like a painful surgery that is necessary to the health of the State of Israel.
On another topic, Palestinians of Gaza should be a little more sensitive to the pain that Israeli Jews are feeling right now instead of hawking slogans like “Our liberation will not end until we reach Jerusalem.” Even PA officials are promoting these slogans. I understand that they feel like they are being freed from oppression, but you don’t celebrate someone else’s suffering. Where’s the sympathy? I don’t feel like they are really recognizing how much of a painful sacrifice this is for us, even if they have been wronged.
Hamas of course is exploiting this as a victory so that they can attract more followers and promote their message of hate. These people are preventing good from coming out of disengagement. What Palestinians should do is hold off the celebrations for now and focus on building a state that can contribute to the int’l community and be a good neighbor to Israel. But their behavior now makes this seem like wishful thinking.

I have some sympathy for the settlers – but these calls, these DEMANDS that we all weep for them, are getting to be a bit much. The Palestinians in Gaza outnumber the settlers by orders of magnitude, and none of the people who go on and on about how painful the disengagement is had a whit of sympathy for the stunted and corraled lives of these people whom the Israeli state treated like cattle. I’m sorry anyone has to leave their home but there is no comparison between what the settlers are going through now and what more than a million Palestinians have had to endure for the last 30 years.

I have sympathy for people who genuinely feel pain since they genuinely feel pain. In other words those kids that are crying have been brainwashed (as have many of the older settlers) and truely believe that they are in the right. Nevermind that millions of palestinians live in a state of complete destruction because a few thousand self proclaimed chosen Brooklynites came to live in mansions in paradise. Sometimes us Jews cannot see through the prism of universal ethics and humanity which is unfortunate because I genuinely believe that we do hold many moral values. There is a populace in Israel that HAS reached its hand out and helped the Palestinians. The settlers have also engaged in colonialist rhetoric accusing millions of Palestinians as being de facto terrorists in order to alleviate any need of thinking about the Arabs who constitute millions of people in the Middle East. You can’t live in a bubble forever and the settlers are waking up to a reality that does not include gangster children with yarmulkes capturing hilltops. The settlement thinktanks even tried to engineer a massive aliyah of questionable Jews from India JUST in order to create even further supremacy over the questionable land.
I think the height of shame was the comparisons to the Holocaust. Nevermind that they are living extravagantly but also receiving thousands of shekels in compensation. These soldiers that have to protect the few families that live there for 3 year mandatory service! If I ever had a little bit of sympathy it was washed away with that idiotic equation. I am a grandson of Holocaust survivors and I abhor the comparison.

avi green, here are samplings are your past posts. i wonder if you were speaking with love when writing these things:
“traitor”, “you disgusting little cretin”, “you are scum”, “please keep on with your muslim conversion lessions” “go back to your burka fitting”
sounds to me like a very hateful person who doesnt like when people disagree with u. shame. i dont remember josh talking like this and hes very close to your side of the political map.

First you, Gal. Way to characterize ALL settlers as racist American immigrants. Do you have any idea why a large number of Israelis moved to settlements in the first place? The Israeli government made lucrative offers of affordable housing within commuting distance of major cities like Tel-Aviv and J’lem. And I know some of the “born again Brooklynites,” as you disparagingly call them. Guess what? Quite a number of them were born in Israel and harbor no ill feelings at all toward Palestinians. Do the right wing Americans whom you refer to exist? Without a doubt. Do they represent all Jews in disputed territories? Hell no. I am disgusted by their actions and beliefs as you are, but I surely do not hate them as you do. I’m not wild about their attacks on Palestinians, their disrespect of the Israeli soldiers (among them Ashkenazis, ignorant fuck) protecting them, and their blatant disregard for law. But they may very well make up a minority of settlers. The next time you have the gall to call someone racist, watch your own comments for blanket generalizations. Israeli society is not some hierarchy in which class rank is determined by skin color. You remind me of that anti-Semitic Irish poet who said that Americans who move to the West Bank are like Nazis and deserve to be shot.
Another thing: I have no idea where you pulled out the idea that settlers caused all Palestinians to be labeled “de facto terrorists.” Palestinian militants who kill innocent Israelis are appropriately called terrorists. On the other hand, it is possible that you see such acts as resistance.
Asaf: I’m not comparing Israeli pains with Palestinian suffering. Such a comparison is morally wrong. Like I said, even if Israel has been in the wrong, it is still making a painful concession. It is nothing like stopping terrorism, which should be a given. In case you haven’t been paying attention to events, soldiers are tearfully removing crying settlers, while Palestinians are cheering as Israel goes through this arduous process. Suffering should not be measured relatively. I understand that a few thousand Israelis are living in a quarter of Gaza while over a million Palestinians are packed into the rest. And it wasn’t worth the lives of the Israeli soldiers either. But messages of victory only convey the message that violence is the way to accomplish goals. Palestinians should be happy about fewer restrictions on their lives and their upcoming independence, but they appear to be cheering their enemy’s downfall. This type of thinking will only hinder peace. But like I said, it could be naive to believe that Israelis and Palestinians could truly live in piece alongside each other.

I fucking hate AP, all the jews to them are settler and all the palestinians are refugees…
I hate that we have to give our land back to these people

dan man- yes i cry. I cry because I haven’t done enough. How can I blame others, when I myself could have done more. But what about tomm.?? The day after the, when the teas of a country continue to be wept in homes of friends? And I, I sit in FL preparing to teach Jewish children. My family is growing, my debit is too and I am worried. We are a people of hope, and yet even I in my position of inspiration find my self searching. I truly did not think it would go down like this…I still don’t. Dan and friends… wait and see, the days that follow will be trying and telling. A war is upon us. A war of love or a war of hate- this I do not know. But it does not end here. Israel was not rebuilt to be shown off for 50yrs and then taken down like a SymCity. Pray, act, and pray somemore. Charity (in all forms) cancels out G-d’s decrees. Stay safe O Israel…wherever you may be, and bring us home…to all your cities.

actually avi, we were never forced to move out. we, according to talmud, sinned gravely, and were punished for it. israel was laid to waste by an invading army. afterwards, there was no means to stay afloat here. no farms, no food, no economy. so we left. we went into exile. but no one ever prevented us from returning here and settling the land until the white paper. up until that point, in the course of 2000 years, we could’ve returned at any given point, but we didn’t. why? because layin’ up in babylon’s a lot cushier than trying to turn a malarial swamp into an orange grove. being in exile was our decision, not anyone else’s.
also, in terms of the land being empty, think in terms of the vast expensive of syria, lebanon, israel and jordan. you had various tribes and peoples scattered throughout the land. so what if they hadn’t paved the entire country! the idea of like, settling every single inch of land is a new and modern, post-industrial concept. people used to believe in the idea of open space. and it was because there was a countryside that wasn’t obscured by electrical wires, highways, and highrises, that they felt a deep connection to the land and grew to love it. saying, “they didn’t destroy the country like we have” isn’t an excuse to say, “it wasn’t their land.”

Zionista you’re making a mistake.
Most of the world does understand the promise to our fathers. The most popular book is the bible. Don’t kid yourself.
Anyway what is the historical record if not the record of Abraham isaac Jacob Moses sinai the prophets the holy temple….
Ignoring it and using nationalistic reasons doesn’t put us above the arabs in terms of rights.
Only Jews who are full of self-guilt have a problem with the covenant- most gentiles understand it very well.

“First you, Gal. Way to characterize ALL settlers as racist American immigrants. Do you have any idea why a large number of Israelis moved to settlements in the first place? The Israeli government made lucrative offers of affordable housing within commuting distance of major cities like Tel-Aviv and J’lem.”
I wasn’t aware that you lack the ability to read between the lines. Yes I should have qualified my remarks. Many of the extreme settlers, the ones who kill Arabs, the ones who threw acidic liquid on soldiers and the ones who camp out in areas that have millions of Arabs (such as Chevron) and engage in outright intimidation are born again Messianic zealots, many of them Americans.
“And I know some of the “born again Brooklynites,” as you disparagingly call them. Guess what? Quite a number of them were born in Israel and harbor no ill feelings at all toward Palestinians.”
By definition a born again Brooklynite is someone who was not born in Israel. Otherwise he would be called a born again Israeli, right?
” I’m not wild about their attacks on Palestinians, their disrespect of the Israeli soldiers (among them Ashkenazis, ignorant fuck) ”
Again I did not say that Ashkenazim do not serve in the army (my sister does for example). What I am saying is that it is well known that a disproportionate number of lower class Mizrachim serve in the combat units…. just like blacks are funneled into the combat units in the U.S. army.
“The next time you have the gall to call someone racist, watch your own comments for blanket generalizations.”
I can say with a large degree of confidence that many settlers are racist and believe in the inferiority of Arabs/Muslims. Even if they did not believe this, their actions speak for themselves…. going into inhabited land as the chosen people in order to bring the Messiah and the third temple. It is very hard to engage in dialogue with people who are that delusional.
” Israeli society is not some hierarchy in which class rank is determined by skin color.”
This is obviously absurd for anyone who has any idea of the history of Mizrachi immigration and the abject poverty that many of them live in. Not denying that there has been improvement, but this is still a historical scar of a few generations ago. Also many Mizrachi Jews lived quiet nicely in the Arab countries so its not like their hatred of Arabs is innate. They were propogandized into this type of hatred in “divide and conquer” fashion .
“You remind me of that anti-Semitic Irish poet who said that Americans who move to the West Bank are like Nazis and deserve to be shot.”
I never said that the settlers are Nazis or that they should be shot. I vehemently disagree with both statements. That does not mean that I don’t see them as racist/arrogant/delusio nal/extreme/irresponsib le and violent.
“Another thing: I have no idea where you pulled out the idea that settlers caused all Palestinians to be labeled “de facto terrorists.” Palestinian militants who kill innocent Israelis are appropriately called terrorists. On the other hand, it is possible that you see such acts as resistance.”
Again do not put words into my mouth. I am very much against the terrorist attacks on both sides. The settlers rhetoric towards the Arabs is racist and disgusting. They are constantly called a “fifth column”, they are called terrorists regardless of whether they are accomodating or not. The settler movement is interested in demonizing them just like other European colonialists demonized the local people in Iraq, India, South Africa, and even the U.S.A. Its the same termonology – these people are subhuman, barbarians, etc. If this is not straight out of the colonialist handbook I don’t know what is.
At the end of the day there are too many geopolitical factors that have to be taken into consideration before a few thousand weirdos who think they are on the brink of redemption. There is oil…. over 1 billion muslims. Israel can’t and shouldn’t stand up against 1 billion muslims for a long time. Its the same “the whole world against us” mentality that the settler movement likes to perpetuate. At some stage even us Jews have to be held accountable to universal codes of morality that dictate that you cannot just build some type of bubble in the Middle East and be oblivious to millions and millions of Arabs…making ad hominem attacks on them. Its just not possible….

Thanks for explaining yourself, Gal.

gal friedlander: “Its the same termonology – these people are subhuman, barbarians, etc. If this is not straight out of the colonialist handbook I don’t know what is.”
Then you don’t know what it is, because indigenous peoples are not immune from racism/tribalism — ie, Rwanda, Sudan/Darfur, etc. Or the idea that one Jewish state is too many while 22 Arab states are not enough. In the great pagentry of human nature, European imperialism is of only one small piece.
You’re sorta right about one aspect of our particular problem, though. Fundamentalists commonly share the outlook that Arab and Jewish national rights are mutually exclusive.

mmm. no tears.