Worst. Op-ed. Evar.
Anyone wanna fisk this jackass for me? I’m too infuriated to think straight.
[Update] Welp, since no one else wants to do it, I’ll do it myself.
For the last two decades, American Jews have shirked common sense and logic in the interest of an ideology that deserted them long ago.
I would agree with that statement, but the ideology to which I’d apply it would be Zionism, not so-called “leftism.” American Jews have come to place the interests of Israel above their own domestic concerns as American citizens, neglecting issues ranging from the environment to civil liberties which affect not only themselves, but millions of their fellow citizens, all in favor of a Jewish state which failed in its inceptors’ objective to eliminate antisemitism. They have thus become willing to bed down with the most reprehensible of characters, such as Jerry Falwell and George W. Bush, in order to further such selfish and misguided interests. This ultimately does not benefit American Jewry, nay, but rather breeds contempt towards us.
American Jewish leftism cannot be overlooked or excused. And in a world teetering on the brink of disaster, blind loyalty to a false cause can no longer be afforded.
As far as I know, having been a Jew all my life, there is no greater cause in Judaism than the cause of social justice. Kindness, charity, compassion, good will—these are the values which Judaism imparts. Tell me, when was the last time you associated “the right” with “social justice”? Opposed to welfare, public schools, universal health care, women’s choice, gay rights, environmental protections—the list goes on and on—but where does social justice come in as part of the right-wing agenda?
Jews have a long history of liberalism in America, dating from a day when conservatives were “country-club Republicans” and Franklin Delano Roosevelt was deified. Those days are long past. Elderly Jews should realize that FDR is dead and that his party no longer stands for tolerance.
Right—and a Constitutional amendment banning gay marriage is way tolerant. Endless right-forged policies which discriminate against the poor and people of color (usually one and the same) smack of tolerance. How could I forget?
It was Rep. Jim Moran, a Democrat from Virginia, who claimed that a Jewish cabal stood behind the Iraq war. It was former Rep. Cynthia McKinney, a Democrat from Georgia, who took money from anti-American and anti-Israeli terrorist supporters during her candidacy for Congress. It was Vermont’s Howard Dean, a Democrat, who labeled Hamas members “soldiers.” It was Sen. Robert Byrd, a Democrat from West Virginia, who was once Grand Kleagle in the Ku Klux Klan. It was Sen. Ernest Hollings, a Democrat from South Carolina, who blamed the Iraq war on pro-Israeli interests. Beyond all the rhetoric about Jewish relatives, the Democratic Party stands for a thinly veiled hostility toward Judaism and Jews.
Give me enough time and I’m sure I can turn up just as many if not more instances of Republican congressmen and senators guilty of—not just criticism of American policy in favor of Israel, which can often be fair criticisms that I myself as a Jew wage—but much more blatant antisemitism. I mean, if you want to talk about aiding terrorism, look no further than Dick Cheney who’s being investigated, as former head of Halliburton, for trading with Iran and Iraq while they were both under embargo. But that’s not the point. If I can generalize about a whole party and its millions of participants based upon the actions of a few individuals, why then, I can do away with all conservativism based upon the actions of say, Pat Buchanan, Rush Limbaugh & Michael Savage alone. Or let’s take it to the extreme: Henry Ford wrote The International Jew and Adolph Hitler designed the VW bug. Clearly all automobile manufacturers are antisemites who cannot be trusted! See the fallacy in the logic here?
Jewish resistance to the Republican Party also has roots in an inordinate fear of American Christianity. Many American Jews fear motivation more than action.
Yeah, well, if the reason you want me to move to Israel is so that Jesus can come and kill me, clearly I have reason to take issue with your motivations.
Though it was Jerry Falwell who powerfully defended America’s pro-Israel policy the night of Sept. 11 on national television, American Jews largely fear the idea that, according to some Christians, Jews will go to hell for their rejection of Jesus. So they fight American Christianity tooth and nail.
Yeah, Jerry Falwell also said the antichrist is alive today and is a Jewish male—as if that wouldn’t instigate antisemitism at all. He also said that homosexuals were intentionally giving AIDS-infected blood to blood banks because, “They know they’re going to die and they want to take us with them,” and that “AIDS is not just God’s punishment for homosexuals; it is God’s punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals.” Great guy to be involved with, really.
They champion the idea of complete separation between Judeo-Christian ethics and American politics. They join the American Civil Liberties Union and the Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.
As well as the founding fathers of this great nation:
“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.” — Thomas Paine
“Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to ‘God’ to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator’s name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible) … It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.” — Thomas Paine
“Let us with caution indulge the supposition, that morality can be maintained without religions.” — George Washington
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause.” — George Washington
“The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.” — The Treaty of Tripoli, signed by John Adams
“The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” — John Adams
“What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.” — James Madison
“Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.” — James Madison
How apallingly un-American!
Down deep, American Jews fear another Holocaust — and they’ve been told that all Holocausts come from the right.
No one ever told me that. My understanding is that they come from the top, down. From authoritarians, who can be either on the right or the left.
For all the Jews who fear American Christianity, the most tolerant and philosemitic ideology the world has ever seen, I challenge you: Look at history.
It was the Nazis who were the secularists — their sophisticated secularism led millions of Jews to gas chambers. The waves upon waves of white crosses marking the resting places of American dead pay silent tribute to the fact that American Christians, not secularists, died to liberate the death camps.
It was the communists who were secularists — their hatred for God led thousands of Jews to the gulag. The fields of white crosses that dot the globe mark the burial sites of American Christians who died to keep the world free from that vicious system of government.
And it was Martin Luther, the Crusaders, the Inquisitors, the Catholic Church and its antecedents which sewed the seeds of this antisemitism by ensconcing it in the core of their theological doctrine. Antisemitism is initially a Christian invention, and let us not forget this fact, for “the passion of the Christ” is the eternal damnation of the Jew.
Further, it was not secularism that was responsible for the attrocities committed under the Nazi and Soviet regimes, but rather it was authoritarianism and ideological fundamentalism that were responsible: the inflexibility of one’s beliefs, and the inclination to impose those beliefs on others. If anything, true secularism (ie., a secularism which accepts no ideological orthodoxies, such as Marxism or Nazism) is a safeguard against such attrocities, because it ensures a lack of compliance with a purported “higher order.”
Today, just as then, it is the American Christians who defend the globe from the threat of fundamentalist tyranny. Leftists like to say that all religious people are on the same side, but no bigger lie has ever been told. The open, life-affirming quality of the American Judeo-Christian ideology is directly opposed to the murderous ideology of radical Islam.
More baseless generalizations and anti-Islamic rhetoric…
And today, just as then, it is secularists who pose the most extreme threat to the Jewish people. It is the secularists of France who ally with Muslim fanatics bent on a second Holocaust. It is the American secularists who defend the rights of terrorists bent on murder and destruction. It is the moral relativists of the American left who excuse terrorism based on the notion of diverse worldviews and hold up the United Nations as a moral paragon.
If you do not defend the rights of Muslim Americans, who will defend your rights when our government discovers a convenient excuse to persecute you? And tell me, was putting sanctions on Iraq which resulted in the starvation of 10,000,000 Iraqi children moral? Was selling missiles to Iran and skimming the profits off the top to send to Latin American cokelords aiming to overthrow their democratically-elected socialist government moral? Was using depleted uranium bullets in the first Gulf War and not fessing up about it until after our soldiers started dropping like flies from Gulf War Syndrome moral? Was dropping the bomb on Hiroshima moral? Is incarcerating 2% of the American population for non-violent drug offenses moral? Was creating, funding, arming & training al Qaeda moral? Was using 9/11 to justify the invasion of Iraq when 18 of the hijackers came from Saudi Arabia (the primo hotbed of Islamic antisemitism) moral?
President Bush and the American right have been the best friends to the Jewish community in the annals of modern history. It is President Bush and his administration that have staunchly maintained their support for Israel, even in the face of withering attacks from the world community. It is President Bush and his administration that have stood up against the neo-Nazi ideology of Islamism. It is President Bush and the Republican Party that have fought for American morality; it is they who zealously guard the Judeo-Christian ethic that has made America the greatest power in world history. It is they who uphold the concept of a culturally, economically, morally strong Jewish people.
It is President Bush and his ilk that have been responsible for manufacturing the current threat to the United States and Israel, for it was Bush Sr. who created al Qaeda. It was Donald Rumsfeld who gave Saddam his first WMDs. It was Ronald Reagan who illegally sold long-range weapons to Iran (with Israel’s help). It was Ariel Sharon who created Hamas, and whose policies in the West Bank and Gaza have left thousands dead and over 40,000 Arab people homeless. It was John Ashcroft who diminished focus on counterterrorism operations in the Justice Dept. pre-9/11. It is Dick Cheney’s company that is most directly profitting from this war in Iraq. It has been the policy of the American right (and its centrist Democrat stoolies) lumbering about the planet like a careless giant for the last twenty years that has so many people willing to blow us out of the water. It has been our apathy and our unwillingness to deal with these issues as American citizens that makes us targets of these peoples’ wrath. If these are the spoils of our “zealously guarded Judeo-Christian ethic” than I suppose I’d rather remain secular, because I’d at least have my moral dignity intact.
It’s about time the Jewish community recognized that fact and realized that allegiance must be to principles, not to parties.
Fuckin’ A! Damn skippy to that. But that’s the punchline here, cuz this guy is stumping for a party guilty of more crimes against humanity than imaginable. Sure, they’re not as overt as Nazi and Soviet attrocities, but that’s only because they’ve gotten so much better at spinning that shit in their favor on (or keeping it off of) the 11 o’clock news. George Bush may not be pushing us into ovens (unlike his grandfathers) but you can be sure we’ll be feeling the backlash from his administration for at least dozens of years to come… and that boils down to my lifetime. And that makes me one sour camper.
I have to admit its kind of funny. The whole nazi vs. christians thing..
BARFBARFBARFBARF don’t worry dude AIPAC gave Bush close to 20 standing ovations a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, it seems to me, that if anything, we anti-Bush Jews need to do some serious work to convince the middle of the road Jews that Bush is not our candidate, neither for Israel nor other issues. There is no question that some Jews only vote according to Israel policy; the question is where do we go from here?
actually, he couldn’t have said any better:
“It’s about time the Jewish community recognized that fact and realized that allegiance must be to principles, not to parties.”
Indeed.
Disclaimer: No relation.
I second his thoughts, you raging liberal bafoon.
i’d rather fisk you.
I’m going to second Asaf on this one. I had a good chuckle while reading this article.
Like any political pundit, you have to take what this guy is saying with a grain of salt. I mean, if we were to dogmatically accept everything a pundit said, then Michael Moore’s proclaimation that “The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not ‘insurgents’ or ‘terrorists’ or ‘The Enemy.’ They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow — and they will win” would have landed him a spot down in Guantanamo Bay with the other insurgents.
Sorry, Mo. You take this way to seriously. So do you Prodly. You too Shamir.
Wow, I wonder if he wrote his own bio too.
“Benjamin Shapiro was born in 1984 in Burbank, Calif. Brought up in the home of two Reagan Republicans, where intelligent conversation about politics and philosophy was encouraged, Shapiro quickly developed into a reasoned political thinker and a powerful writer.”
Er… right, dude.
I think the one fact he got right in his screed is “FDR is dead.”
reasoned political writer, my foot.
ah, thinker . someone’s gotta create editbable comments.
I think he’s right. Secularism and the Left are the Jewish people’s gravest enemies, and have been for over a hundred years. Secularism has caused more deaths to Jews than every religious crusade against the Jews throughout history. And, considering Evangelicalism’s extremely pro Jewish and pro-Israel stance (admittedly, for odd eschatological reasons), Jews in America have less to fear from Christians than they think.
The virulent anti-Zionist rhetoric in America and in Europe isn’t coming from the Right, it’s coming from the Left. IMHO, the Left is no friend of the Jewish people and never has been. Europe especially is proving that all over again.
teri, weren’t you going to join the blogteam at one point?
prodly–raving liberal bafoon? go pray by baruch goldstein’s graveside like your hero noam federman. maybe you can start a campaign to free yigal amir–seems to be right up your ally.
neil–“Secularism and the Left are the Jewish people’s gravest enemies, and have been for over a hundred years. Secularism has caused more deaths to Jews than every religious crusade against the Jews throughout history.”–prove it.
Mobi
While not the greatest article, its funny that you didnt like it because you happen to be the left wing version of Ben Shapiro.
Youve written posts that were far more ridiculous and unreasonable than this article.
This may be a surprise to you, but not everyone who disagrees with your left-wing fanatic, conspiracy theorist-U.S Killed Nick Berg- views is irrational and ignorant.
jimbo–how much longer are you going to continue to throw around my mere postulation of the possibility that the cia might have killed nick berg, as if it’s such an absurd contention so as to wholly dismiss everything i write? seriously, don’t you have anything better to do with your life than troll this website?
oh, and also, i never made the contention that people who disagree with me are absurd or irrational. but i certainly think that ben shapiro’s op-ed here is that, indeed. also, stop telling me who and what i am. you don’t know me from a hole in the wall.
heh. i am sitting here, surrounded by zionist cows and zionist horses, about to take a train to tel aviv for an afternoon of fun and games and then off to jerusalem for some zionist sushi and i have to wonder how ironic it is that this site’s biggest troll is ragging on jimbo for being a troll. pot. kettle. black.
as for shapiro’s article… well, i recall dennis praeger making the same points about secularists being responsible for more deaths than any religion – between hitler and stalin you can conservatively estimate about 50 million deaths. can’t ignore that argument.
however, shapiro is a bad writer and an ass kissing toad, married to an ideological orientation that completely prevents him from being able to think critically. I am embarassed for him. Sounds kinda familiar though, hmmm….
While as a non-yankee, I can’t vouch too much for the internal American politics, I think he’s right in principle.
Mobius wants to prove that secularism is killing the Jews. Just check out the statistics, polls, and identity of your fellow North American Jews. Evaporating through assimilation and intermarriage, shying away from hillel on campus so as not to get involved or ‘take sides’, staying away from the synagogue because it’s uncool or can’t be changed like the channel on tv to suit his/her tastes.
We are our own worst enemy. The nazis (indirectly) caused Jews to run to ‘America’ and they thought they could assimilate and be accepted. Oh how wrong our grandparents were. All they did was save themselves and children, but their grandchildren will pay that price for their leaving the faith and accepting secularism. It’s happening in America as we speak. The Jews are disappearing.
josh – jews came to america for lots of reasons, but most got here before the nazis were in power, and by that time it was none too easy to get in. many were seeking religious freedom or fleeing pograms… that sort of thing.
as for those who did flee nazism to come to america, they knew better than most the limits of assimilation. safety was the primary concern. which, in fact, they (and their grandchildren) have received in america. the murder of jews because they are jewish is an extremely rare thing in the US; the same can not be said for jews elsewhere.
back to the whole fleeing thing – the irony is that the religious jews came to america, the secular jews went to israel. american jews are (broadly speaking) much more comfortable with religion than israelis. do secular israelis get a free pass here?
and PLEASE lose the line about the jews in america are disappearing. we’re just fine over here, thank you very much. the reports of our demise have been greatly exaggerated.
also .. i didn’t suggest that secularism is killing the jews — the author of that op-ed did.
the writer of the op-ed claims that secularism + radical islam are the enemy of the judeo-christian theology (or whatever he means). I think its about time we separate the terms judeo and christain. as my philosophy teacher told me, nietzsche didn’t read the talmud.
asaf, that may be so, but contrary to popular opinion, nietzsche hated christianity and loved jews.
Dont worry – it wont be a few years before liberal mindedness becomes the j-norm again.
Can you imagine what will happen to flatbush when all the goverment money programs instituted by the liberals over the years wash up and dry because they all voted republican?
No more free yeshivish diapers !
Wow a bit harsh on Bush maybe? Completelly ott to be frank. Don’t like him fine but ad hominem attacks are counterproductive.
NB: I think the Constitutional amendment is a stupid idea.
Jews are squeezed by anti-Semitism on the left and anti-Semitism on the left. It is diificult to choose, but I remain a liberal and a Democrat [As Americans understand these terms], although I eschew the far left as being tainted by anti-Semitism. I did not join the peace movement for the same reason.
I never thought that Zionism would end anti-Semitism and I do not think that Zionism has failed because it has not ended hatred of Jews. I can live in America because Israel exists. If Israel did not exist I would have to go to there and help create it. I’m not sure that this thought has occurred to Israelis, but it’s true.
I am a Zionist because I believe that Jews will always need a country of our own as a refuge from anti-Semitism.
I do question Jewish conservatives. They are putting their conservative philosphy first by ignoring the anti-Semitism of the Christian Right. It was appalling that they defended Mel Gibson.
However, all the recent polls, including Gallup’s May 25th poll, Jews remain Democratic and socially liberal. They also see the Christian Right as the most anti-Semitic group in the US. Just because the AIPAC audience cheered Bush’s speech does not mean that they are all going to vote for him. I predict that Jews will remain Democratic and vote for Kerry.
Mo, i am not sure i agree regarding your statement about nietzsche. I have only read one book, On THe geneology of Morality, and a few other short excerpts, so i may be totally wrong, but i dont think Neitzsche “loved” jews. I am not sure he was an antisemite either, though.
But you cannot ignore the fact that for him, the crucifixion of jesus was an ingenious twist of the jewish ascetic tradition. thus i can assume he (polemically) hated christiany MORe than judaism but still “hated” judaism as well.
i distinctly remember reading several passages of nietzche’s in which he praises jews, tho he was critical of us in many respects as well. i suppose love was too strong a word…
I emailed Ben Shapiro yesterday before this blog entry that I enjoyed his article. I suggested to him that his next article should include the facts of Jews voting DEM do to the generational traditions we follow ( we usually do what our parents train us to do), and assimilation.
As an Ex-Dem I have joined the Republican Jewish Coalition. The democrats have revolted me ( byrd, hollings…clinton..)
I am from a state , TX. that I am surrounded by S. Baptists. They will tell you right to your face that as a Jew, you are going to hell. They are also all Republicans. That does not even phase me. They could tell me they like brussell sprouts and just beacuse I don’t, again it does not phase me. You have to LET it bother you. Often if they bug me on the going to hell issue, too much, I ask them where Jesus is since he did not beleive in Jesus….um well…
But the real end should be no matter who we vote for, that we still respect the fact that we can choose who to vote for. Do not insult your fellow Jew.
Take a look at Ben Shapiro’s archives. They are great stories.
Mobi-
you do a pretty good job responding to many of ben’s points, however, none of these responses were earth shattering, or proved him to be so ridiculous as to merit the title “worst op-ed ever.”
Almost all your disagreements boiled down to a matter of opinion. Many of you retorts were simply conclusory statements saying ben is wrong because dems are good and republicans are bad. While im sure you believe it all to be true, it is still just your opinion/ interpretation of the evidence.
Also, although I occasionally take jabs at you, i (almost) always attempt to keep the conversation civil. I have no idea why you keep on insisting that i stop visiting this site. I have already seen you curse at insult, and tell to leave, several posters who disagreed with you. You should welcome debate on this website, even if its from extreme right wingers. A person with extreme views such as your own should be quite understanding of the value of debate.
BTW – Ben Shapiro supports ethnic cleansing: http://tinylink.com/?4A4901hQka
Oh damn, this is also funny: http://www.townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/bs20030820.shtml
this guy’s a loonie
Last one I promise… townhall.com/columnists/benshapiro/bs20030423.shtml
this person’s a sicko.
Jimbo — It’s one thing to raise a contention to a point I’ve made, and another to try to make me look bad as a person. You spend less time debating with me and much, much more focusing on me as a person as opposed to rejecting the points I make. You attack the person, not the issues. Is that what you call the constructive debate which I should welcome?
Also, Jimbo, where on earth did I say “dems are good and republicans are bad.” I think they’re both awful. “Anyone but Bush” is my slogan in 2004.
Ben’s views regarding gays pushing their agenda in schools is pretty much the consensus in american society today. Why is it looney?
Asaf, although ben is extreme on many issues, do you not realize that your views more “out there” than ben’s views, and would be considered “looney” by a much larger segment of american society?
Now, you dont have strive to agree with mainstream political views, but at the same time, dont criticize views that happen to be more moderate than your own as being “looney.”
“Ben’s views regarding gays pushing their agenda in schools is pretty much the consensus in american society today.”
A homosexual conspiracy theory is the general consensus? I see…
Jimbo, I dont think you really know my views. Unless you dont want me to consider this an ad hominem attack (what else would it be if you have nothing to base it on, and which would prove mobius’ point), i’d like to know how my views are even more exreme that a homophobe and supporter of ethnic cleansing, and who loves antisemites.
I thiiiink… that when you say that i am more extreme, you mean in relation to yourself. But obviously that would be a fallacy. Thus i would like to hear from you a definition of something which is NOT extreme (moderate? you pick the word) so we can figure out whether or not i am what you call me..
Mobi-
most americans oppose, how in the past decade, gay culture has been forced upon them and has become so pervasive in society and schools.
I have no polls at my fingertips, but ive seen polls where a large segment of the u.s. population (i.e. not a fringe element 35%-70%) oppose teaching about homosexuality in school, gay marriage, a gay focus in college classe etc. Even if you wouldnt consider a majority a general consensus, it is at the very least, not looney.
i’d love to see those polls and the questions that the people were actually asked, as well as the neighborhoods in which people were polled
btw, jimbo, let me get something straight. if you’d have a poll about “black” culture 100 years ago, the majority of people will be against teaching about it etc.. so while i would be extreme by not agreeing the majority, it definitely doesnt deligitimize me.
thus, maybe we should use other adjectives for ben shapiro. I used them.
Hmmmm….Homosexuality. Now there is a nice Jewish concept to be teaching our children.
My point was that opposing the gay agenda isnt “looney”, in that many people agree with it.
I didnt comment if it was right or wrong, or try to deilegitimize your view. i simply said it wasnt an extreme or fringe view (as opposed to his population transfer bit, which is extreme.).
Asaf wrote:
“Unless you dont want me to consider this an ad hominem attack (what else would it be if you have nothing to base it on. .”)
Huh? Did you read my comment?? it was exactly on point to what you wrote:
You personally attacked Ben by calling him a “looney.” I responded by saying that his views (on this matter) are not extreme and more similar to mainstream views than yours. The reason i mention that you (or mobi) have extreme views is not as a personal attack, but in response to your comments dismissing right wing points of views as absurd. Thus, mentioning yours (and mobis) political leanings is not a personal attack, but is quite relevant to the argument of whether a certain opinion is, in fact, absurd.
Oh, and not having support for a claim does not make it a personal attack.
yes. very important. still a prosecuted minority in the majority of this world. and it is as jewish as heterosexuality is jewish 🙂
Wow. If you think there is a place in Judaism for homosexuality, then I think you and I have nothing more to discuss on the matter.
jimbo darling,
good point about ad hominem, i should have said that Ben Shapiro’s thoughts are lunatic. you got me there.
“you got me there”
I wasnt trying to “get you.” As i wrote above, i was simply explaining why it is not a personal attack when I call your political leanings “extreme.”
prodly obviously never saw trembling before g-d nor read wrestling with god and men.
No I havent. I am aware of the book and I am not about read any BS distotions and theories that give the green light to homosexuality under the Torah. I also am not planning to read Mein Kampf.
Why dont you check out ‘The Revolt’ and learn about the real struggles of our people.
shows what you know. torah doesn’t prohibit you from being homosexual — only from having homosexual intercourse, which it calls an abomination. it calls shrimp an abomination too, but you don’t see bush drafting constitutional amendments banning shrimp cocktail.
Worst Op ed ever was this story written in jewsweek.com about Jews crying wolf. That one sucked. OK. It maybe wasn’t meant to be an op ed. but it effectively was. and it really blew. and mobius wrote it.
this thread is so damned long and was inspired by such patently stupid writing that it hardly merits a second glance. in fact the only reason i am even here is because … well, i am about to get another goldstar beer and continue this fascinating conversation i was having with this totaly hot israeli woman, and well… I guess I wanted to rub it in a little.
downtown jerusalem is a little whacky and full of christians. say what you will about them but they are totally saving israel’s tourist industry. ok. goldstar beckons. israel is sweet. come down some time. except for asaf. you can stay in new york. heh. kidding.
“but you don’t see bush drafting constitutional amendments banning shrimp cocktail”
You dont see bush drafting constitutional amendments banning homosexuality either. (and you adding “cocktail” after shrimp still doesnt make it a valid comparison).
As a side not, I dont think that the amendment is a good idea, but if it were to pass (which it probably wont, because its almost impossible to pass a constitutional amendment on anything), it would demonstrate that this is what the people really want, and would be the most democratic result. So instead of criticizing those who support it, why not just let it pass or fail in a democratic process, and let the people of this fine country decide…as opposed to a panel of judges who were never elected.
iT SEEMS BEN FOUND JESUS OR SOME SHIT!
WAY TO GO MOBIUS
After reading the second sentence I decided it wasn’t worth reading the rest.
“American Jews have come to place the interests of Israel above their own domestic concerns as American citizens, neglecting issues ranging from the environment to civil liberties which affect not only themselves, but millions of their fellow citizens, all in favor of a Jewish state which failed in its inceptors’ objective to eliminate anti-Semitismâ€
What this says essentially is that if there are people who are not concerned about the environment it is because they are too preoccupied with Israel. Where’s the logic in that? What other things are they neglecting because of their preoccupation with Israel? Is it not possible to be concerned about Israel and about the environment at the same time? Absolute stupidity.
zz — you miss my point. if you’re voting for bush because of his support of israel, clearly your interest in israel trumps your concern for the environment, considering that bush is the worst thing to happen to environmental policy in 30 years.
Mobi-
I think youre a little misguided in that you believe people have some kind of moral obligation, or are supposed to vote on what they think is best for the country. This, of course, is incorrect.
People, should vote (and usually do) based on whatever makes them happy, and not based on what they think will benefit the country, or the world as a whole.
If apartheid in south africa and welfare reform are the most important issues to a black man, or SEC regulations is the most important issue to a ceo, that is what the should, and usually will, base their vote on. This is their concern, and if they dont vote based on this issue, who will?
The same is true with israel. If voting on what you feel is in the best interest of israel gives you satisfaction, then that is what you should vote on.
Susan wrote:
“I am a Zionist because I believe that Jews will always need a country of our own as a refuge from anti-Semitism.”
How well does Israel perform as a “refuge” ? it’s like a giant
ghetto/bunker where people queue up to get searched every 5 minutes from what I can tell, and busses blow up every few days
I think Miami beach is a nicer refuge for Jews.. but that’s just me
then again Florida has hurricanes
What’s this about morality and Hiroshima? War is immoral dude. That being said, the Japs deserved everything they got and more. Their policy through the war, especially in China and Southeast Asia was “Kill, Plunder, Burn.” At some point, the crimes of a government/army become so great that they become the crimes of a society (tortured analysis I know, but true), and at that point, the society deserves comeupance. All that goes for the Germans as well.
Babylonian: I spent 3 months working in Miami Beach. In that time I saw a man get shot to death by the police on the street, I walked into an armed robbery at a hotel and witnessed a carjacking. Granted that may be atypical, but Miami Beach is no refuge for the Jews. For instance, Jews from Argentina and France fleeing domestic turmoil and anti-semitism do not have automatic entree into Miami Beach, whereas, this afternoon on the beach in Tel Aviv I enjoyed the company of recent immigrants from both France and Argentina (this morning had lunch with a nice impossibly blonde Jewess from Siberia, and on and on…).
As for Israel being like a giant ghetto/bunker, well, I respectfully disagree. Say what you will about the fence, but things seem to be changing here. Sure there are guards everywhere, but that’s really a minor inconvenience. I partied in Jerusalem on Thursday night till waaay past 3 am surrounded by crowds of people. And I am not talking bakka, I’m talking rehov Hillel and Shlom Tzion Malka, a mere stone’s throw away from the more notorious bombings. People are out, the weather is awesome and things seem to be getting better. I’ve been here over 2 weeks without any incidents. So there.
I don’t know, I kind of agree with Babylonian. Nation-states, self-determination, participation in the U.N. — a lot of people seem to have the illusion that this guarantees security; it doesn’t.
Don’t get me wrong. For the Jewish people to exercise the most basic right which international law assigns to it does ensure a bunch of things, most of which come down to a seat at the table and acknowledgement of our existence as part of the international community.
But it’s never been the utopia or panacea that some seem to think it is, and it never will be. Lots of countries have national myths; that seems to be one of Israel’s. Debunking national myths doesn’t kill countries or remove their raison d’être, obviously. On the contrary — I think it makes them stronger. But that`s another debate.
Yes, Miami Beach might be safer at this moment in time, but they may come a time when even American Jews may need a refuge and Israel will be the only country that will gladly take us in.
American Jews are much less likely to need a refuge than European or British Jews, but you never know.
I read on the JTA’s web site that a synagogue in Northern London was fire-bombed. I tried to find out more, but I couldn’t find any information on The Guardian’s, the BBC’s or The Independent’s web sites. A Yeshiva student was knifed in France during the D-Day Memorial. It says a lot when French Jews immigrate to Israel because they do not feel safe. So you see that Israel is still functioning as a haven for Jews.
I see a clear distinction between liberals and the rest of the left. The latter is anti-Semitic the former is not.
Yes, Miami Beach might be safer at this moment in time, but they may come a time when even American Jews may need a refuge and Israel will be the only country that will gladly take us in.
American Jews are much less likely to need a refuge than European or British Jews, but you never know.
I read on the JTA’s web site that a synagogue in Northern London was fire-bombed. I tried to find out more, but I couldn’t find any information on The Guardian’s, the BBC’s or The Independent’s web sites. A Yeshiva student was knifed in France during the D-Day Memorial. It says a lot when French Jews immigrate to Israel because they do not feel safe. So you see that Israel is still functioning as a haven for Jews.
I see a clear distinction between liberals and the rest of the left. The latter is anti-Semitic the former is not.
While the initiators of Zionism did hope it would alleviate or even eliminate Zionism, it was not, in itself the purpose of the project. The purpose was that Jews could live normal lives, that is as a people on its historic homeland (which does not preclude having a diaspora, and if you haven’t noticed, more and more nations have diasporas these days).
It is the premice of Zionism that Jews are regular people like you and me, which is why it was opposed by the deeply religious (the whole am-segoola thing) and the usual detractros for whom Jews are only tolerable as a subdued religious community.
Antisemitism? It seems it’s so embedded in what is now becoming a global civilisation, and thus we’re stuck with it on the long haul.
The detractors of Jews and of Israel are on the extremes of both the right and the left, and in times where moderation is losing it to the exremes (as in the 1930s… or the 2000s…!) of course you’re going to get more of it.
And it is rather funny to see how some in today’s left are making list of Jews in “key positions” the way it was done by the more traditional right in the past, and hinting at “shady influences”.
The anti-Jewsh slant found on parts of the left is due to a manichaean view according to which Jews in diaspora are the bourgeois oppressors and Israel the imperialist oppressor state par excellence. Many of them used to worship Jews/Israel as the ultimate victims and bearers of romatic lost causes, given that Jews are only human and Israel just a country, they are disappointed by normalcy and hold it against both Israel and the Jews, which is why their tide had turned.
The current pro-Jewish slant on the (U.S.) right is due to the expectation that the Jews and Israel will imminently deliver the Second Coming in a gift-pack; obviously Jews /Israel will fail to ship the goods and when that happens see the tide turn.
As for Mr. Ben Shapiro this gem of his: “It was the Nazis who were the secularists” is enough for him to be identified as a crank.
Secularism, politically, is not state-atheism; it’s simply the absence of a state-religion.
Nazis wanted to instaur a death-cult of war-god/s inspired by their perception of pre-Christian religions among ancient Germanic tribes. Nazis believed the war-god/s had made them a race of overlords and destined them to rule, and that to achieve their dominion on the lesser races they had to eradicate the “anti-race” of the Jews, that what they meant by “Gott mit uns”.
Nazis wished to transform Christian denominations existing in Europe into that death-cult by co-opting them and “de-judaising” them.
Nazis were no atheists, and definitely no secularists either.
8opus: I know terrorist incidents in Israel are very high profile, but statistically, road accidents kill more Israelis than any wars or terrorist incidents. Also, you are more likely to be a crime victim in New York or Miami than you are to be a victim of terror in Israel. Far more likely.
Israel was never meant to be a utopia. The Zionist dream was to simply make Jews normal – possessed of a state with Jewish taxi drivers, Jewish cops and Jewish robbers. This hardly seems like some kind of utopian ideal. What we have now is a political entity where Jews are for the most part, masters of their own fate. No longer subject to the mercy of others or quotas or whatever, Israel is, amongst other things, a place of refuge for Jews, as well as the world’s most dynamic Jewish community.
But never mind all that. Israel is not Utopia. It’s simply a better alternative to perpetual exile.
8opus: I know terrorist incidents in Israel are very high profile, but statistically, road accidents kill more Israelis than any wars or terrorist incidents. Also, you are more likely to be a crime victim in New York or Miami than you are to be a victim of terror in Israel. Far more likely.
Israel was never meant to be a utopia. The Zionist dream was to simply make Jews normal – possessed of a state with Jewish taxi drivers, Jewish cops and Jewish robbers. This hardly seems like some kind of utopian ideal. What we have now is a political entity where Jews are for the most part, masters of their own fate. No longer subject to the mercy of others or quotas or whatever, Israel is, amongst other things, a place of refuge for Jews, as well as the world’s most dynamic Jewish community.
But never mind all that. Israel is not Utopia. It’s simply a better alternative to perpetual exile.
While the initiators of Zionism did hope it would alleviate or even eliminate antisemitism, it was not, in itself the purpose of the project. The purpose was that Jews could live normal lives, that is as a people on its historic homeland (which does not preclude having a diaspora, and if you haven’t noticed, more and more nations have diasporas these days).
It is the premice of Zionism that Jews are regular people like you and me, which is why it was opposed by the deeply religious (the whole am-segoola thing) and the usual detractros for whom Jews are only tolerable as a subdued religious community.
Antisemitism? It seems it’s so embedded in what is now becoming a global civilisation, and thus we’re stuck with it on the long haul.
I know this is an ad hominem attack, but how old is this guy? 15? He writes like it.
Hey Jimbo
That is tjhe precise selfishness that will get the jewish community in trouble if they keep voting that way.
“That is tjhe precise selfishness that will get the jewish community in trouble if they keep voting that way.”
how so?
Fix, to whom are you referring?
Israel was never meant to be a utopia. The Zionist dream was to simply make Jews normal Er, yes. We’re each saying the same thing.
mobius, i assume fix is referring to ben shapiro. it sounds like he is writing the manifesto of the fellowship of the ring.