nice pix dr. green thumb.

I witnessed one of these shabbat gatherings of yours and what i saw was a total hilul Hashem. I want to warn anyone who is serious about Torah to avoid these “shabbatons”. This past shabbat was parsha Pinchas and the previous week was Balak. In these parshiyot we see Am Yisrael chasing after Midianite women and serious idolatry through Ba’al Peor. It is only through sexual promiscuity that the Jews are damaged. 24,ooo Jews were killed because of this grave situation. Only Pinchas, son of Elazar, son of Aharon the Cohen rose up and stopped the plague that was consuming the Jews. Through this act of violence he was granted a Covenant of Peace with Hashem only because he did it with a pure motive – to protect the Jewish people’s relationship with Hashem.
Last night I stopped by this shabbaton that was organized and what i saw shocked me. A group of Holy Jews, many “religious” were sitting completely nude in a circle. Other religious jews sat on the side looking on. Sitting naked! on the exact shabbat that the Torah warns us to be sexually pure. i couldn’t believe it. A few of the guys there suddenly became ashamed and got dressed quickly, while others howled at the moon. many of the people who came in my party left immediately and a couple others explained to the naked revelers that they were desecrating the shabbat. mixing kedusha with promiscuity is a cocktail for trouble.
I earnestly warn anyone who is serious about protecting Am Yisrael to seriously avoid these shabbat experiences. Right now the Jewish people are in a very precarious position….every mitzvah counts. Let’s continue to bring goodness and Light into the world so we may merit Redemption immediately.
shavuah tov!

pomiscuity is promiscuity….the Zohar explains that a Jew’s vessel can only be perfected through acting modestly….modesty is everything.
Mobius writes: have you ever considered the idea that becoming comfortable with one’s own nudity and that of others desexualizes nudity and thereby makes it something normal instead of something lacivious?
So if that’s the case why dont we all walk around nude in society? There is a reason for clothing. There is a reason for being modest about sexuality. How can you possibly think that on shabbat it is okay to sit around nude with a bunch of boys and girls? It is desecrating the shabbat…and I warn anyone that serious about Torah that they should avoid these shabbatons.
Mobius, i’m not sure why you are sticking up for these hippie Jews who are clearly tampering with dangerous ideas. Because once the clothes come off on shabbat, an orgy is the next step, don’t you see that? That’s how the Yetzer Ha’ra works. “Take off your clothes, it’s fun, it’s liberating, it’s natural….touch each other, massage each other, make each other feel good…” this is the reasoning that will start to happen.
Especially on this last parsha of Pinchas, you can at least see why I was disturbed. And there definitely were goyishe women there participating in this “shabbat” experience.

THE BAAL SHEM TOV EXPERIENCES SHABBOS
TRANSCRIBED BY RABBI SAMUEL INTRATOR
Reprinted with permission of Connections Magazine
It is said of the Holy Baal Shem Tov, when he was still seeking to discover the correct way to serve G-d, he was always in depression.
He was fearful that maybe he did not perform G-d’s commandments
in the proper way.
Perhaps he did not adhere to Sabbath in the required
manner.
Indeed, there are many restrictions in our religion. Who can
ever adhere to all these legal requirements?
So, he once asked his rebbe, the prophet Achia, from Shiloh, to show him the place in the Garden of Eden of those people who adhered to the Sabbath best. The prophet led him to such a high place in heaven
where even angels were not permitted.
High above, he saw two golden
thrones, shining brilliantly. The Baal Shem asked his master,
“Achia
Hashiloni, for whom are these two thrones prepared?”
He was told,
for you, since you will be wise,
and for someone you must find.
That Saturday night, after Havdallah, the Baal Shem ordered his servant Alexsi to prepare his horse and wagon at once. After they left mezubush, (the Baal Shem’s home town) Alexsi lost control of the horse and it seemed to ride endlessly, for days, across rivers and mountains. Finally, they arrived in a large foreign city where no Jews resided and the horse pulled over in front of a small house in the outskirts of the city. The Baal Shem was greeted by a German who bore no semblance of being Jewish. The Baal Shem asked him if he could stay with him for a few days. Why not, the German answered him.
The Baal Shem soon noted that this fellow was a plain townsman with no Jewish values. He never prayed nor ate Kosher food. But, the Baal Shem reasoned, if his horse stopped in front of this house, he must wait here and observe carefully. The Baal Shem spent Shabbos there as well.
(Needless to say, the Baal Shem passed on fish, chulant or Kreayot Hatorah – reading the weekly portion from a Torah scroll; that Shabbos.)
All he was able to eat were a few loaves of dry bread that he took along for the trip. During Shabbos, the German hosted a great feast for all his friends. They ate, drank, smoked and danced and really lived it up. What a Shabbos experience for the Baal Shem. He entered in a deep depression, reasoning to himself
this cowboy
will be my partner in
the world to come.
Saturday night, as the Baal Shem was preparing to
leave, he could not resist asking his mysterious German Shabbos host for an explanation of the purpose of that great joyous feast he hosted earlier in the day. He responded, “When I was a small child, I was taken away from my Jewish home and brought here. I know absolutely nothing about Judaism. I only remember that my father used to always teach me that
we
are
commanded to rejoice on Shabbos.
Large numbers
of people came to our house every Shabbos. That is why I developed my own custom to make a great feast every Shabbos and invite my neighbors over and rejoice together with them.” The Baal Shem then realized that here is a man with a true Jewish heart. What a high soul!
The Baal Shem wanted to return this great soul to its Jewish root and explain to this man how Jews really keep Shabbos. But,
he
simply
could
not express himself. It was
as if
his power of speech
was denied to him
from heaven.
The Baal Shem understood that G-d is more satisfied
with the way this man currently keeps Shabbos then if he were to change his approach
and abide by
all the laws of Shabbos.
His current
Shabbos is kept with his heart and with perfect joy which would
most definitely be lacking if he were to keep a traditional Shabbos.
This, my dear friends, is the great message of Hasidus. we all need great wisdom to know what methods to employ in our service of G-d.
Such knowledge, we can receive from our pious leaders. If the irreligious people were to understand this, they would not be irreligious. After this experience, the Baal Shem asked his master, Achiya Hashioni, to show him the place of those who desecrate the Shabbos. He led him through barren desert unto the deep darkness, into the lowest pit in hell where he saw two greatly burned black coal thrones. For whom are these frightening thrones waiting for, the Baal Shern asked? His
master answered,
for you,
G-d forbid,
if you will not be wise
and for a friend of yours.
The Baal Shem travelled to meet his companion from hell. This journey was a short one as the horse and wagon this
time led him into a densely populated Jewish quarter where you could smell the Shabbos food in its streets. The horse came to halt in front of a house where the sound of Torah study rang loud.
The house was that of the town’s rabbi,
a man who strictly adhered to every
minute detail in his observance to G-d.
The rabbi hardly noticed his quest as he was so engrossed in Torah study. Nonetheless, the Baal shem remained there for Shabbos. A bitter darkness enveloped the Shabbos atmosphere in the rabbi’s house. This strict rabbi was afraid to touch anything with his hand in the event he might desecrate the Shabbos and violate the restriction of Muktza or to take an unnecessary step with his foot which might result in his killing an ant on Shabbos. He simply sat around all day and wondered which restriction he may have violated. What a poor and low Shabbos. The Baal Shem wanted to inform him that the
Torah was not given to angels and that Shabbos is a time to enjoy the heavenly bliss. He was, however, unable to express his thoughts.
One is reminded of the Talmudic teaching, “Just as one is commanded to instruct someone if you are certain he will heed your words, so too, one is commanded not to instruct someone if you are certain that he will not heed your words.”
This story was told over one hundred years ago during a Shabbos Shalusudis feast in the court of Reb Abraham Yaakov of Sadyager by Reb Liebishel Istricher, a leading Hasid.
Get it? Check out my website for more clarity about what the torah is actually saying, for that matter, learn Gemara in it’s original language, not just the shulchan aruch, or the speeches your rabbi gives on saturday morning. you might get the wrong idea from those.

and just to clarify, where and how does the Zohar say “modesty is everything”? I do that too, quote things out of context to make points, but i’d love to look it up tommorow, and see how the aramaic is phrased. Because the Zohar is totally anti-etz hadaas. that’s the book that says that the eruv rav killed moshe rabbainu, and buried him in the mishna, and that kinda thing. can we get a source for that idea?
It’s also the zohar on parshat pinchas that tells us that the other side is basically happy just to control tzaddikim, and pretty much leaves everyone else alone.

I hear what you are saying….but please find me a rabbi who says it is okay to have men and women sitting together naked on shabbat? i want his name and number…by the way …have you ever been inside a mikva where women and men are mixing? Didn’t think so. what great torah scholars were there on friday night at your shabbaton? please find me a great torah scholar to support what you were doing. The Baal Shem Tov would have condoned men and women sitting together naked? Are you confusing him with Shabatai Zvi?
you are fooling yourself Yosef….the yetzeer ha’ra works on all of us very subtley…it comes to get you to first sin on very small “meaningless” things…once this door is open it starts to get you on bigger averot. What was going on this shabbat was wrong, plain and simple. You were sinning and worst of all you caused other jews to sin along with you…this is very serious!
The other problem was that not all of us were Ba’al teshuvah….we brought people who were FFB as well (one of the guys with us is very, very pure….he’s never even kissed a girl, let alone seen naked men and women sitting together on shabbat), but so what? It was a pure desecration of shabbat and a hilul hashem for all of us to see. Regardless of what happened after all of us left, i don’t care…what i saw is what i saw and every ounce of me knows that it was for sure wrong. Now I’m not the holiest jew in the world…i face my own battles, but the irony of the Parsha we had just discussed and then the scene that was going on on your rooftop was not lost on any of us who showed up. Pinchas was rewarded for his zealotry! So what if hashem didn’t ask him to kill Zimri, Pinchas saw Jews dying in a plague and he did what he did for kiddush Hashem, he didn’t do it for any other motive.
Yosef, if what you were doing was so right, how come you immediately became ashamed and put on a pair of pants? How come the Breslov guy immediately jumped up and put all his clothing back on? why were you ashamed? no one had said anything to you…obviously your neshama was slapped back into reality and your higher self felt that something was wrong.
Listen, i apologize for having this discussion in such a public way, but I truly feel it is my obligation as a Jew to warn other impressionable Jews from attending your free-spirited shabbatons.
With respect and sincere love for Hashem and his children (including you and your naked friends),
Sam

were there any non-jews present at this shabbat? i was pretty sure that there were….imagine the idea that you gave them!!!! that this is how Jews celebrate shabbat? you are walking a dangerous line, my friend

While the condition for receiving G-d’s blessing is stated at the beginning of the portion, namely, adherence to Torah and Mitzvos, the high point and conclusion of the promised blessings alludes to the basic tenets of Kedushah , (sanctity), Taharah (purity), and Tznius (modesty) in Jewish life. For Kedushah, Taharah and Tznius are the foundations of the indwelling of the Sanctuary and Shechinah among Jews in general, and within every Jew, man and woman, in particular.
The sanctity of the “camp,” the Jewish home, and of Jewish conduct, is clearly emphasized elsewhere in the Torah, namely: “Your camp (at home and outside the home) shall be holy, that He not see in you any immorality, and turn away from you.” Devarim 23:15.
check the rest of the article:
http://www.chabad.org/library/…

it looks like Yosef is trying to bend the Torah to fit his own needs and views. I agree that what happened was a desecration of shabbos and hashem. And jews need to be warned about this group of characters.

Safra d’Tzniuta (“The Book of Modesty”):
Safra d’Tzniuta is a section of the Zohar.
Oh, so maybe you should check it out, Yosef. it exists and it is an entire book of the Zohar.

i’m working on finding an exact quote for you…might take me until tomorrow…but i remember learning that a Jew’s vessel is perfected only through acting modestly when it comes to sexuality…maybe there was no actual sex going on on Friday (although i highly doubt that this was the case), does it really matter? men and women sitting around together naked on shabbat during parsha Pinchas especially…does this sound right to anyone out there?

Yosef, have you read Pirkei Avot? it specifically tells us to attach ourselves to a Rabbi. there are certain situations in life wheere you just know whcih way is the correct Torah way. that’s where your rabbi (one who you totally trust) comes in. There are certain times in life where we need guidance. You, my friend, need a rabbi…you value your own knowledge too much…and that is also avodah zara…valuing your own ego to the point where you cannot accept anyone else’s knowledge (wasn’t this the main problem of Rabbi akivah’s students?) is avodah zara…not just bowing down to elokim achairim…money can be avodah zara, sex can be avodah zara and worship of the body can be too.
you are trying to bring Torah down to justify your actions.
what real Torah scholar would condone your actions?

you’re going to read all of Safra d’tzniuta? good luck…it is very extensive…i hope you find what you are looking for, but please don’t try and use the Zohar to justify what happened.

Yosef, you are speaking in abstractions…and making no sense really. Let me ask you a question…did anything sexual happen on Friday night? be honest…no point in lying about it if we are openly discussing this.
And were there non-jews present?

“Path of the Boundary Crossers” that’s where you are bringing your source from? the Torah is all about BOUNDARIES…once we start crossing these boundaries that’s when we wind up in trouble.
I highly, highly doubt that Moshe Feinstein would have seen your naked shabbat as something being allowed in Torah Law. be careful who you quote…R. Moshe might not be happy with you taking him out of context.

make no mistake, i have rabbaim, who’s eitzahs I am mivatel to. They live in yerushalyim, pardes chana, zichron yaakov, have smicha from the lubavitcher rebbe, moshe feinstein, R soloveitchik and R’ shlomo amongst others… All the more radical things i’m saying, I only ever learned from them. And you know what? I good rav is only one who makes you to be a rav too. A rabbi who doesn’t make you go and find truth for yourself is worthless.

i agree that you should eventually become your own rav, but even then you are still attached to a rabbi who is higher than you…all Talmud is based on a hierarchy of rabbis… in most cases, we go according to the rabbi who came first….so you must always mivatel yourself to a rabbi who is above you.
Shabatai Zvi also spoke about the “New” Torah of Moshiach….where di he lead the Jews of his day? into sexual promiscuity and orgies and eventually conversion to islam. honestly, you don’t sound so far away from this.
again i ask…was there any sexuality going on during your Friday night shabbat? can you answer me honestly?

Truth is truth, does not depend on who says it. How does it feel when you hear it? Taamu ooh riooh ki tov, does not depend on being approved by a tzaddik.

Yosef, were non-jews present? did sex take place?
everything you said previously is on the line here, bro, unless you answer these questions.

“Nothing you do can make him love you more, or less”…writes Yosef
this is true…i agree….but the shechina went into exile because of the Jewish people’s actions…what say you to that?
every action has an equal and opposite reaction….well, where do you think this reaction is coming from?
Yosef, answer the questions posed of you! were there non-jews present and did sex take place.

Yosef, why are you avoiding the questions? did this naked shabbat take place in front of non-Jews….did you give these non-jews the impression that this is how Jews celebrate shabbat?
was there any sex that then took place out of this nakedness?
come on, answer the questions.

Dear Samo.
First of all nobody cares for your weekend shabbos-blockbusting review. And unless you passed pitchfork-media’s taste test, your opinion on art counts as much as your pseudonym counts for your birthright. At best your rant can be summed up as discriminatory. If you would like to put up a fight, and think you’ve got the skills for it, remember first of all for the month of Tammuz and Av, you should lay of the Jews. But if your angst is flaring up your cross-posting message board twitch, pick on some Jews for Jesus missionary freaks for your kicks.
Bob Dylan once said, “Don’t criticize what you can’t understand”. He was paraphrasing what Hillel once said; “Don’t judge a person till you reach his place.” Interesting to note he does not use the words “in his shoes”, (which is the norm when we compare and evaluate others situations), rather ‘place’, to mean…even if they are not wearing any shoes, or eh’hm, clothing. So don’t be a judge of Yoseph’s crew.
And if you are still judging that is OK, you are just naïve. Obviously you do not understand your issues within yourself and within Halacha. Halacha was set up to replace the pragmatic western lifestyle’s reaction to; “oh no, look mom, they are naked hippies over there, shame on them”, and instill in Jews a higher, loftier practice of conduct.
Halacha is the art or revealing the divine dimension through the medium of human acts.
You should allow yourself to be amazed with what you can-not, as a human comprehend.
(hot and sweaty bodies are pure, clothing sexualizes the body), while they transcended from this fashion statement bonding their souls toward heaven. Instead of only seeing the hot naked bodies, you could have been reaching high levels of prayer, along with the rest of the congregation. Don’t get ashamed and guilty Samo, you are exempt since previously, you did not know the Halacha.
love, ahron

If you can sit by women naked and not feel sexual then I feel sorry for you. To become desensitized to the feel and the look of the female body is something that hashem has given us as a gift to experience with our wife. Obviously I can see that you and probably everyone there wasn’t married. I’m sure you felt that it was a holly shabbos and as you say touched the heavens. But brother come down to Earth “Torah lo b’shamayim hie”.
You say from MF and I quote “that the only problem with nudity is community standards. In a place where no one is bothered over it, there’s no need to be bothered by it.” Bro community standards is not defined by a bunch of wanna be hippies. Halachakly if you look in the talmud it is defined by the rov.
You can give me an email and I will give you my number and we can talk more about it. foodchain at gmail . com
I”m sure you had good intentions, and felt it was inspirational, and such, but you can’t walk in this world with the lights off don’t depend on your own torah to justify your own ideas. Asay l’cha rav. Asay as in make, it takes work it isn’t easy, because it is very comfortable to follow your own heart.

well said Yosef from Amherst!!! you are exactly right. it is not easy to have a rov…to put your life in someone else’s hands.

ok sam, first of all, i resent ur use of the word ‘schmutz’ negatively, above (schmutzfest is not, atleast historically, an orgy- see http://www.schmutzfest.com).
Anyways, not that anyone asked me, but…
1. its beautiful to see u all discussing this issue so passionately. the heated deliberation playing out is truly a kiddush hashem, reminiscent of those between hillel and shammai (if not the same subject matter).
2. in support of sam and gang: the oft quoted pirkei avot says that everyone should serve hashem in there own fashion. this has been explained to mean that everyone has their strengths and weaknesses, talents and non-talents, and that everyone should serve g-d using what they were given to their best ability using those strengths and appreciate their lot. there is however a certain basic premise that must be held to and then built-upon with those talents specific to each of us . that premise is the torah, w/mitzvot and the gates (the preventive gates around the isurim, also noted in the very beginning of pirkei avot). is chilling out naked as described an acceptable activity? hmmm, based upon pirkei avot, doesn’t sound like it. but back then, they didn’t hav baal shem tov folklore or chassidut.
on the flip, to lend some support yoseph’s way, everyone is different with different needs and on different levels. that must be recognized. they r trying to grow.
U’ll always attract more ppl with honey than with a punch in the gut. Do we accept deviants and their ways, encouraging them to grow with us? Or do we punch ‘em in the gut and push them afar, to be exiled from the community? Which option is more likely to see positive results?
the main issue i see is having naked parties and institutionalizing them or saying they r correct, because that is how bad things happen- shabtai zvi, the reform movement, etc.
to conclude. on one hand i really wish i could hav been there. not to stone the nudies or get stoned. but because it sounds exciting. it sounds fleshy. it sounds like something my yetzer harah would love. it sounds like a fantasy or dream i’ve had for many years. but, i realize its not a healthy situation for my neshama and where i’m going. thats not judgemental (dirty dirty word. ok, please, we’re all judgemental), its about me recognizing what is right for me, and not saying what is not right for others. at one time, i might hav attended a nudist paradise, but i’ve moved on to a different place, where such gatherings are no longer a necessity and making up excuses for them is laughable. i still make up excuses to myself for all of my sins, but i’ve gotten more creative, and in the end, i know and admit i’m wrong.

Dear Yosef,
Were you really sitting in a circle naked? without your kippah? I’m shocked. Please send photos.
Love, Esther
p.s.keep me on your invite list!

Mishna Kiddushin 80b. A man may not be secluded with two women. , but one woman may be secluded with two men.
This is all about modesty and tznius. This means a man may not even be alone with one woman, and why is it Ok for a woman to be with two men? Because each of the men will be ashamed to give in to his desire in the presence of the other.
If this is wrong for one on one, kal vachomer, how much more so for a group of twelve or more.
Kiddushin 81a: Rav Amram the pious saw a woman in the upper story of his house and a light shone on her face. Rav Amram was so enthralled by her beauty that he took a ladder that 10 people could not lift and proceed to climb the ladder to proposition her. When he reached the middle of the ladder he spread his feet apart to steady himself and shouted “fire in the house of Amram.” The Rabbis came running and saw there was no fire in the house . They said to him “ you have shamed us all by what you were about to do.” Rav Amram replied , “ better that you be shamed in the house of Amram in this world, and you not be ashamed of him in the world to come.” (i.e. Had I not called out to you and committed the sin, you would have been ashamed of me in the world to come( were all is revealed) of having been associated with such a sinner as me.. Better that you suffer a transient embarrassment in this world than an everlasting embarrassment in the world to come. )
Avodah Zarah 101(sic) : “twelve naked people sitting in a circle howling at the moon”.
I am an older BT who grew up in the 60’s, so I understand your base taiva, but as I was drawn to yiddishkeit, one of the first things I learned about was the modesty of the Jewish woman, all our matriarchs were extremely modest woman, and are an example to all other women, that is what separates and makes the Jewish woman so beautiful, you do not want to debase this.
I also noticed most of the posts appear to be from men, (most men fantasize about an orgy, so these opinions are driven from a very low place of klipah). I would like to know how some Jewish women feel about celebrating shabbos this way.
I notice esther wants to join the circle, THE Real Esther was willing to give up her life to save the Jewish people from Haman to be with Achasverosh, I hope you esther are wanting to do it for the same reasons.

emilia ……ur a refreshing response to read ;).someone who was there and actually knows the vibe..ya who the hell calls our shabbos’ a ‘shabbaton’ …give me a break

o get over it. like how long can u be bitter and rant about this

u did ur hishtadlut so now just buttel urself

ur right….i said what i said and i’m done….G-d bless all of you!

sam– earlier you seemed to say that it mattered very much whether or not there had been an orgy.
Yes, it’s asur for men to see naked women, but it’s not the end of the world– there are certainly worse things one could do. There is a tendency sometimes to make tzniut the center of a woman’s avodat hashem, which is out of porportion, and often unhealthy. Yes, some women learn from tzniut that they should be valued for more than their breasts. But some learn that their bodies are shameful. A problem in chinuch? certainly. But my point is that getting neurotic about tzniut is not the proper response to a lack thereof.
I personally find the idea of such comfort with ones body rather appealing. Due to halacha (helped by my own hangups, perhaps), I have never actually tried it.
( For the record, I did NOT just advocate nudity, I advocated tzniut, on the basis that it is halacha. But chill out, and keep a snse of proportion)

I actually agree to a certain extent that it can be self liberating to be naked and feel comfortable, and in fact were we not to have eaten from the etz hadas we would be still naked. I do think that one can attain a level beyond eitz hadas where there are no hang ups on sexuality. I’m however sceptiacal that you all acheived that level. (Maybe you did and it was very strong kool-aid).
I was on the beaches in Hawaii after a sweat lodge after drinking some peyote tea and I sat there naked around alot of other naked people. We all felt comfortable just being, and it was a very healing feeling after previously having some hang ups about my body and its skinny frame.
We do however have something called halacha. It is not ok to play guitar on shabbos even though I think it would be very spirtiual and uplifting. The same thing can be said with being naked. I did mention earlier that it isn’t a good thing to not feel any sexuality around beatuiful Jewish women. But I do recognize that it can be very liberating. However G-d said “no” just like he said no to the guitar on Shabbos. Yes it was the Rabbis but G-d gave them this power to create his word.
I think someone mentioned earlier that it is the three weeks and we should be concentrating our efforts to bring Jews closer.

All of you right-wing fanatics are stupid and lame and need to take off your clothes more often, or hang out with people who do. Great story by the way Yoseph, it’s my new favorite. Also ahron your post was brilliant and masterful, and saved me from really having to write anything.
lovin you

hey, wow, does ester now own the rights to a website called nakedyosef.com? Is that the jewlicious ester, or a different one? Lord, we all have such common jewish names.
You’re definitely invited next time, i’d have called if i knew your number. Think we can make some side money from the website?
Ah but then i could never be naked on shabbos again, it would be like working. Might not be worth it.

In response to Yosef again, you can find a rabbi to tell you anything is okay. the point is that in halacha majority rules…and i know for sure (and u can’t really argue with this one) that the majority of Torah observant Jews will say that men and women naked together on shabbat is not right.

nice. Temple prostitutes? We’d have to build a temple first. Human sacrifice, we’re already yotzei, with ourselves usually, and with others when we conquer them into serving our God. And an intermediary made of Stone or Wood? The kotzker says that’s our leaders, so, it might not be real, but we’re probably yotzei on all the ikkarim.

i heard someone say: why did we prohibit tree-worshipping, sacral whores, and human sacrifice? Because until we prohibitted them, we thought they were the only way to be holy.

what pattern are you refering to? that these are the only 3 things that one is allowed to give up his life for?
otherwsie, it missed me. but, you’re clearly off the derech to be saying such things.

under judaism? Only because I cite sources… sometimes.
Juaism as i understand it is and has been very afraid of two main things, more than anything else:
1) dying, culturally, either from assimilation, or, y’know, amalekites. This fear is what kept us from becoming buddists on mount Sinai, instead wanting a Law that would let us have passion, life, fun, drama, and family experiences, of all the animalest pleasures, like love, pride, sympathy and all those things we do.
All living things fear dying, and will do most anything to avoid it. Cultures and religions are the same way, when not threatend, they are nto afraid, but will try to prove their nessesity to you in order to be sustained. Israel has done this effectively enough for us the last long while, giving a culture worth giving up… usually. Everytime the outside culture has been better than ours, we either changed ours to be EVEN cooler, or assimilated, because who needs it?
If nobody cared about Israel, at all, God might not too.
Most of the biblical prohibitions that don’t have to do with justice, feeding the poor, keeping the wealth from becoming centralized in the hands of individuals for too long have to do with not imitating the ways of the nations, because, as soon as we give up on the game, what do we play? And what if they don’t love us as much as our mother does? Who will care for us when we’re hurt, or alone, but the tribe?
So we keep the tribe going, because it cares for us, and loves us, when no one else will.
2)The main fear in halacha, more than dying or assimilatingi, is that we’re goin to become insensitive to someone else, something you have to do in order to be sometimes, and also is the most natural thing in the world to be. That seems to be the main function of Israel, to be an empire that sets us free from the abuses of Empires, a job that feels good to work for.
2) regressing, stagnancy. As much as there’s all the talk of going back to Jerusalem, it’s not allowed to be the same Jerusalem it was, it has to be so new. We can re build the old temples, only build a new one, one that would not be hurt by anything, not because it was so hard and impenetrable, just one so beautiful and accesible that everyone would appreciate it.
That’s all. The main problem with the practices you listed were that they were forbidden, because they were threatening at some point. The Zohar hints pretty strongly that two of the three aren’t a problem in the right messianic context, calling the Ashera, the earth godess celebrated through tree devotion, the Shchina straight out, saying why can’t we have trees by the temple mount? Because when you have a tree, you don’t need a temple anymore.
There’s a great book called the mystery of love by Marc Gafni, that goes into what the idolotrous practices that were prohibited meant to us, what they meant on the level of kedusha, and messianic ideas about how they’ll be re-incorporated.
I don’t think less valid is a problem… To do any of those things would have MEANING. What would they be trying to say?
If the lubavitcher rebbe said Tree service was the highest, anyone who wanted to hate him would say Aha! he’s a heretic like we said all along, and anyone who trusted him would listen to hear what he means.
I remember noticing once that, maybe for the first time in history, the official law of the majority of the Rabbis and poskim in Israel was that these are the Messianic times, right now.
Jesus tried to say that, and that was the problem. Shabtai Tzvi, the only problem was how unsustainable it was, giving everything away and spitting in the face of the sultan, expecting a heavenly fist to come and take care of us… If it had worked out better, like the Baal Shem Tov’s revolt, we wouldn’t remember it so badly.
We’re very afraid of being led somewhere dangerous. Good. We’ll know when it’s safe to feel safe, and even if we can’t, our kids will.

Crack-
How have you answered my question?
Your first three numbered points have nothing to do with my argument. Then, you say
“The main problem with the practices you listed were that they were forbidden, because they were threatening at some point.”
Main problem?! You think that the main problem with attribution of G-dliness to objects or people, random sex, and human sacrifice (!) is that they were threatening at some point? Not intrinsically wrong?
“The Zohar hints pretty strongly that two of the three aren’t a problem in the right messianic context, calling the Ashera, the earth godess celebrated through tree devotion, the Shchina straight out, saying why can’t we have trees by the temple mount?”
Even if the Zohar actually says that (where?), who says these are Messianic times? And is the Zohar saying that Avoda Zara is not a problem, or that what some may consider Avoda Zara is actually not?
“I remember noticing once that, maybe for the first time in history, the official law of the majority of the Rabbis and poskim in Israel was that these are the Messianic times, right now.”
You’ll have to provide some source for that. The most I’ve seen is some Rabbis saying that the last 50 years are an “Aschalta De’Geula”, the beginning of redemption, a far cry from actual Messianic times.
“Jesus tried to say that, and that was the problem. Shabtai Tzvi, the only problem was how unsustainable it was, giving everything away and spitting in the face of the sultan, expecting a heavenly fist to come and take care of us… If it had worked out better, like the Baal Shem Tov’s revolt, we wouldn’t remember it so badly. ”
The only problem was unsustainability? You mean, as in reality? Kind of like saying that the only reason I can’t fly and have bullets bounce off my chest is because I’m not a fictional character. Well, yes. We might also want to mention that Shabtai Tzvi was a lunatic and a fraud (but aside from that, what a guy…)
“We’re very afraid of being led somewhere dangerous. ”
That’s right. Something that should concern you, especially since you are influencing other people.
“in addition i think that you religious men are a bunch of jerks for holding on so tight to the religion for so long. and for continuing to use women as property.. you are all self righteous and puff chested and have a blast. ”
Looks like someone has an easier time taking her clothes off in public than unloading her baggage. And for the record, I treat all the women I own as well as all my other property.
“to put it lightly, grow up, stop letting other people think for you.”
This from a post filled end-to-end with cliches.
“do you want to be a part of our community? if no, then fine but do us a favor and stop short of standing on the street corner banging metal pots together saying that we’re doomed. ”
The problem is that you publicly conduct your nonsense as Shabbat observance and as Judaism. Think of these as brand names owned by the entire Jewish community. When you lower the quality of the brand, or pass off cheap knockoffs of the real thing, it becomes the business of the rest of us to preserve the integrity of our brand.
“the ones who are somehow able to let go of the idea that they are the only ones who are right.”
Present company…included?
“take the blinders off, and the fear of the new. the torah is evolving.”
Yeah, time for a new testament…D’oh!

okay, this has turned into some self-righteous debate about what judaism really is and who are the real jews….you’re all full of it. i started this thread b/c of the unbelievable travesty i witnessed on shabbat. let’s try stick to the subject.
“selectively” – you nailed it right on the head! you can continue to be harsh….b/c you’re right.
“emilia” – many people have tried throughout the ages to create a “New” form of Judaism….it doesn’t work! Go learn some real Torah and stop trying to create some bs backyard revolution. Torah is adaptable to any time period…it’s you who aren’t.

uh… chazal created a new judaism, it’s kinda working.
>
Riight. the thing is, our tradition is in the public domain, has been for a while. Now it’s just a matter of quality, which can usually be tasted or felt.
Sam, if you’re going to point fingers at an unbelieveably travesty, the torah tradition lo these past two thousand years is not to just bow our heads and take it, but to engage the accusation. Can you understand that not only is there a real sheeta about what we were thinking, but maybe, it was closer to the true message and purpose of Torah?
Again, not demanding that you believe me, just that you understand. do you? This has been a fundamental theme in torah since the very beginning of it. what you hold is what holds the structure together, and what I hold is what gives it life. I’m convinced that my Torah is the true tradition, passed on from Shlomo Hamelech, about what the real purpose of the things we’re doing is, and it’s also what split his kingdom.
Historically, I couldn’t say things like this in public, nor write them down usually, or it would be burned, like the ramchal’s more interesting stuff was, by the jews who were threatened by it.
I really appreciate the commitment not to try to kill me except through words. Hashem, look what big steps we’ve made!

“respected rabbis, much like respected priest, ministers and imams, are whores”
Yoseph it is really sad what you have been writing in the name of some holy sages, Besht, R Moshe Feinstein and all the chachamim, and then trying to pass it of as halachakily right to justify your position. I don’t think these sages in shamayim are very happy. Whatever you think about any current Rabbis is your choice, but to revile all respected Rabbi’s as whores is clearly not coming from a good place within you. Please be careful what you say and think twice, I can see you are extremely bright and at heart probably have a very high level neshama, otherwise the other side wouldn’t be dragging you in this direction.

obviously, i don’t mean whores in the bad sense. Everybody’s got to feed their kids somehow, And I totally understand why someone would want to be a religious leader rather than sell pickles in the market.

Yoseph:
You still haven’t offered any explanation as to why your ideas couldn’t be used to justify even the most abhorrent acts.
“I’m convinced that my Torah is the true tradition, passed on from Shlomo Hamelech, about what the real purpose of the things we’re doing is, and it’s also what split his kingdom. ”
I believe that you are convinced, but why should anyone else believe that you are the custodian of a 3,000 year old tradition that millions of others have somehow failed to comprehend? Is it your superior intellect? Greater sincerity? Unique spiritual powers? Were you somehow chosen to receive and transmit this knowledge? Please explain why you are so uniquely gifted.
“I really appreciate the commitment not to try to kill me except through words. Hashem, look what big steps we’ve made!”
Well, you know how primitive the rest of us human race can be, not being privy to the secrets and all. Yes, we’ve come a long way.

which accusatory sexist conclusion would be appropriate?

Someone have a problem with accusatory and sexist? Might wanna go after the author of this:
“in addition i think that you religious men are a bunch of jerks for holding on so tight to the religion for so long.”

“it’s people like you that cause assimilation, j. ”
In this case that might be a good thing.
“why don’t you go ask some non religious jews what they think… ”
I do all the time, including members of my family. They don’t think people like me cause assimilation.
“or because of a holier than thou standard that most people are repelled from like a heaping pile of whatever comes out of your mouth. ”
Sweet. That statement in itself conveys a holier-than-thou attitude. You may want to be aware that the ages-old knock on women is that they tend to get emotional and are incapable of rational argument. Since you haven’t offered any defense of your actions (at least Yoseph tried) and instead resorted to name-calling, aren’t you proving that view right?
“all you do is espouse the word of this dead rabbi or that dead rabbi. or this rabbi from yeshiva or that rabbi from yeshiva…”
You must have me confused with someone else, though I do occassionally quote dead (and live) rabbis.
“human beings are capable of original thought, that’s a large part of the work this world is about. ”
Yes, but in order to intelligently discuss any topic and produce original thought, you must have some knowledge of that topic. You couldn’t discuss, in any meaningful way, the new Supreme Court nominee if you were ignorant of jurisprudence, current controversies or what the Supreme Court does. Likewise, if you want to discuss Judaism, you need some command of its subject matter, and that involves the words of…lots of dead rabbis. True original thought arises following the study of a subject. You and Yoseph are confusing original thought with childish rebelliousness.
By the way, where is that original thought anyway? Nudity’s been done before. So has feminism.

No, you aren’t holier than thou. You’re just full of respect for others.
“but you don’t read things that i write with open eyes do you?”
Yeah, it’s just impossible that I could read your brilliant (and original!) thoughts with open eyes and still not agree. After all, you’ve been so careful to give good reasons and arguments for your positions (like “my Torah is bigger than yours!”).
“that’s fine, i have given up the naive thought that you would learn something about tolerance. ”
You must be the expert. No self-righteousness here.
“your point about women getting emotional was coming from a really sad low place. ”
Sad or low is irrelevant. True or false (or whatever in between) is the issue. I find it ironic that you behave in such a way as to perpetuate old stereotypes.
“you don’t understand how my ideas can be relevant to judaism because they are new ideas in judaism… ”
You haven’t presented any ideas. And Yoseph’s ideas are nothing new.
“… don’t call shabbat a brand. that’s the worst description you could have made.”
I guess the idea of metaphor is lost on you.
“i’m sure you have some original thoughts now and then. ”
Oh, thank you, thank you.
“but your attitude towards women is old and needs updating”
I don’t think anything I’ve written has conveyed my attitude toward women, only my attitude toward you. But you offer no reason why my attitude needs updating, and the fact that that’s what you want is irrelevant to me. In general, what you want means nothing to the world (maybe to daddy). If you want people to listen to you, you’ve got to give reasons.
“or you’re going to be in for a wild time if you ever pin one of em down.. ”
If I pin one down, a wild time is GUARANTEED, baby!
“and please, learning torah is more than memorizing different conversations in the gemarah, that’s a really naive way to look at it.”
Well, since I’m so naive, maybe you could tell me what learning Torah is. I’m sure you’re quite the expert.
“it was given to the women first.”
Are we taking obscure Midrashim literally? And if you rely on such writings, do you also accept the ones that are less complimentary toward women? And are you quoting…dead rabbis??
You need to grow up. Not you, and not anyone else, has a G-d given right to be right about anything. To even have a chance, you need to study, think, and have reasons and arguments to support your positions. Everything else is just attitude and petulance.

Over 100 posts? On something as irrelevant as “come on Bye”
Read; cum on bi? Hmm. Is Sam homophobic?
Surely this is a fight. Any fight that is over halacha does not and should not get personal. If it’s for the sake of heaven, we don’t point fingers, rather point our prayers or petitions to the one source of all controversy, our congressmen or maybe-god. This is borderline Avoda Zara, a strange worship of the self, ego, and the insistence of a last word.
Well Sam, it seems you wanted to command the attention of a few innocent good-timers getting together to serve g-d. Who are you to tell them anything? Your ruined their party, and now you ruin the blog. Next time Sam, stay home, and continue to a be an anonymous lurker. Stick to what you are good at Sam, drop your pants, whip your kitzur and start stroking.
Oh, and J, “come on bye’ for the action.

a really pathetic display in which texts and torah are warped and misquoted in pursuit of an unoriginal agenda that predates shabbtai tzvi and the frankists, even if they are undoubtedly Mr. Crack’s mekubolim
the moral relativism that attempts to overturn the Torah by erasing distinctions and tearing down boundaries so you can replace them with a directionless anarchy that those who ‘provide the ideas’ control
that is quite typical of cults and avodah zara whose members think they are clever and courageous for rebelling against conservative practices and the status quo when they are nothing more than gullible fools being led around by their noses

a word to the wise, when someone comes in claiming that good is evil and evil is good and holiness is filth and filth is holiness and that standards are arbitrary and what he’s really after is helping you find your own connection with God
any cult deprogrammer today can tell you what the tannaim knew, what that person’s agenda is

“have smicha from the lubavitcher rebbe”
Sure. And I have smicha from Reb Levi Yitzchok of Berditchev himself. The Rebbe ZYA never granted smicha. He was not a practicing rov or a posek.

Oh and when you say ‘liberating’ what are you trying to liberate yourself from? The torah and it’s laws? God?
It’s pretty gosh darn hard to liberate yourself from god. Where ever you go, there he is… I was thinking more like fear? Of each other, of being vulnerable or threatening? If someone gets hard, the nicest thing you can do for them is just let it go, without judging them or pushing them into discomfort. If they’re waving it around menacingly, that’s something else, but there’s no need to either embarrass or helplessly indulge anyone.
Not something I do every shabbos, the naked thing. Initiated by someone who mamish had no sense of any problem with people being naked, I have yet to be convinced that it’s more shabbosdik to make others feel uncomfortable with that which they had no idea they were supposed to be ashamed of than it is to go with it. I don’t feel like any halacha as I relate to it or experience it was violated, and no one who I don’t know or is part of my community has a right to tell me what my halacha is, anymore than a sefardi has the right to go to an ashkenazi shul and complain that people’s legs are crossed.
You do have a right to pass on ideas, or ask questions. Using brutality, embarassment, and invoking the name of god in vain, even if it was effective, would still be toxic, and is the main reason religion and religious law keeps people away from God rather than bring him closer.
This is what Emilia was talking about above. There’s what traditionally called a masculine approach, to force things into being the way you need them to through pushing, poking, and being stronger. And there’s a feminine approach, which involves listening, sensitivity, and warmth, not pushing anyone around as much as soothing them into calmness, and quieting them through warmth. Internally, this is the relationship between the mind and the heart. The mind is stronger, and can dominate the heart, usually in the name of protecting it, and in doing such, and silence the heart’s council entirely.
One of the problems with the world, is that we do things maculinely, for the sake of expedience, and out of fear. The faster and more violently something is done, the more it wounds and reduces appreciation. Cooking at high temperatures destroys most of the nutrients, and while there might be time for it, it’s not as good for you.
This is a little bit what kiddush levana is about, hamyvin ya-avin.

KSC – I (try to) respect chabad, but that is off the wall.

i think emelia is right, not overall, but she stated some good thoughts and ideas that should be recognized. btw men are the ones creating the assimilation. a woman no matter who she marries will still have jewish children if she is a jew. i thinkm the men on this forum have posted more emotional comments than emelia, definitely. calling ppl names and getting worked up equals emotional. even if the claims have been “halachic” the guys ripping this apart are really overlooking the key in it all: everything is a mirror, we see things ffor a reasoon and our first response should not be Oh let me teach them a lesson, tell them what gd really wants, that is really yeshus , even if u think it is holy it is not. why? bec the sider of kedusha doesnt speak to a person this way. how does it speak? it says, why am i seeing this,what is my connection with this? do i have some remez of this act por taava within me, do i act on it, have i acted on it. did i overcome it? and how? ok now that i CAN IDNTIFY with the person and their place i will speak with Them. this is true tochacha. this is a friend this is the way we should behave with eachother.emelia called ppl names but she really doesnt give a #$%@, thats the truth.

Smicha is given through the laying on of hands. Mitzvot amplify the light transmitted through the sephirot. Averot conceal the light. It is a beyond human spiritual capacity to understand even a single mitzva. The shem ha meforash is concealed within every Jewish soul. The angel of Eisav is the Satan. Do not accept light from this source, it is Avoda Zara.

wait. so only light from the angel of eisav is called Avodah Zara?
Is this the root of it, before the seven nations, that had to be swept out of the land? Is not any light from Israel ever called Avodah Zarah? That’d be interesting if not.
Matat, the living voice of Hashem, and all the partzufim all the way down could all be treated as avodah zara, if we really believed that the distinction between the Father and The Son was real. That was what Elisha ben Abuya saw, Matat sitting on the heavenly throne.
And he thought to himself, wait, he’s not supposed to be sitting on the heavenly throne, only standing. So what if there’s a higher power in heaven? Or two wills?
Matat is equated in the zohar with the mishna, in some chassidis with halacha, and the worship of it vs. the true god as being a reccuring struggle within Israel. Implying that even the voice of the torah could be utterly false if we understood it too harshly. Which we all do.
Anyone have any sense of what Avodah Zara is rooted in? Because I’ve heard argued that we can only say that it exists only in Am Yisrael, and all it’s dependants, paraphrasing that shlomo torah of, y’know, I can only smash my own Idol, I can’t smash anyone else’s anymore, it just doesn’t work.

and don’t forget— Eisav broke his halacha to love yaakov, possibly forever… Aren’t we chayuv to live our laws to love him?

yoseph i think avoda zara is in fallen daas bec daas is seeing the source of everything, seeing Hashem as mimalei kol almin v’sovev kol almin. the way i understood is that elisha ben abuya saw this and got cauht in it, didnt see or recognize the source (daas), it was shaky, he was off. the baal shem tov says someone who has daas never suffers. someone who sees its all G-d sees its all good always.