All of a sudden Mobius has gone all frum on us.

When Democratic leaders questioned Howard Dean’s meaning in his use of the term “evenhandedness,” all they seemed to be doing was trying to establish a sorely needed rhetorical baseline. Considering that we have seen a powerful surge in popular expressions of a “South Africanization” of Israel, and a proliferation of classic antisemitic motifs casting neocon Republican policy wonks as The Scary Omnipotent Jews within progressive circles (including within the Democratic Party itself) over the last few years, I don’t understand why is this should be such suspicious behavior.

It’s like Dave Horovitz (the one from J-Report) said, “Israel is the only place in the world where a Jew is not a minority.” If we f**k this up now, it’ll be a huge irreversible blow to Jewish identity, culture and frankly, our historically disproportionate prominence in the world. As a Jew, one can live outside of Israel, but not without Israel.

Zionista makes a good point above. No one questioned the national allegiance of blacks when south africa was a major issue.
Mobi writes:
“What is more important? The state of Israel…, or Jewish peoples’ ability to live freely and without duress in the United States as well as any other country in which we choose to reside?”
Why are you assuming that these have to be mutually exclusive? Why would supporting the candidate who you think is best for israel mean that you dont care about freedom?
Is there a candidate out there who supports israel but not U.S. freedom?

“I agree with Mobius. If you want someone who supports Israel, then go live in Israel”
–I dont think mobi ever said this, or would agree with you on this.
“They (women) receive 30% less pay then men in most jobs.”
–untrue.
“I am sure that the people in Israel can take care of themselves. ”
–I am glad youre sure of this. Jews in israel, both right and left, look to the U.S. for support.
“Either way it’s about time that people start looking at what is really going on”
–why are you assuming that theyre not?

The State of Israel is definately more important. If we lose that, the Jewish identity of the masses will slowly dissipate with each generation.

jimbo’s right about mutual exclusivity; the problem is — which becomes the make-or-break issue in the election?
i feel my rights and freedoms are infinitely more important than the nature of the state in which i reside.
israel is a refuge, yes–a last resort. why do we need such a refuge? for the times in which hostility towards jewish people reaches an unbearable state. now–which is more important? the refuge? or ensuring that hostility towards jewish people never becomes so strong again that the refuge is needed?
i feel that zionism is a struggle of independence, not just for jewish people, but for all people. until all people are free from repression and able to practice their religions openly, able to travel openly, able to live anywhere, until they have a quality of life absent of poverty and discrimination, until people are Free with a capital F, then as jewish people we will never be free. attaining zion means attaining the elevation of all downtrodden peoples. and that means starting at home, here in the u.s., elevating the status of our downtrodden–those of all ethnicities and religious backgrounds–all americans.
spiritual zionism didn’t want a state in israel, it wanted a center of jewish life that could radiate outward as a beacon to all the jewish communities throughout the world. i think that beacon can radiate forth from any number of communities, one spreading outwards to another until we cover the earth.
thus, strengthening our place here in america as jewish people, committed to pursuing justice on the part of all americans, is what will elevate us and bring us to zion. but if all we care about is having a refuge, and we’re willing to make all sorts of sacrifices and to focus squarely on that refuge, a refuge will always be necessary. let’s eliminate the need for one…

Mobius, I think you’re point is well received. The Jewish “heart” – that is an emotionally and spiritually located Zionism – in America has always far outweighed an American nationalism practiced by the American Jewish Community. Horace Kallen explains this in “Utopians at Bay” Many of the comments made just affirm that American Jews have used their social mobility as the catylist for building the Jewish state through economics and politik. I think you’re explanation for American Jewish support of Israel too far grounded in a Buberesque mood and sometimes fails to see the despiritualized but prioritized view that American Jews have of the State of Israel. I think its perfectly legitimate to feel paranoid. We could live here for the next 1, 25,50, 500 years and be cast out, straight to the State of Israel – which will embrace our Yiddishkeit, our checkbooks, and our love with open arms.

i do not, for a moment, believe that antisemitism has always been around–particularly not in its current manifestation. antisemitism originates as a byproduct of institutional christianity and was eventually warped into a method of political control, previously in europe, and now in arabia. that’s a pretty recent development. and certain assessments, such as the effect of our greater allegiance to israel over the u.s. as american citizens, which could be deemed “antisemitic”–as you have done–may be indeed be “antisemitic” because they reflect negatively on jews, but be that as it may, it makes those assessments no less truthful or important for us to look at.
antisemtism has always existed and will always exist? i’m glad you’re resigned to being hated without just cause for the remainder of your days. i on the other hand seek truth and to share the truth, and the truth is, we’re not who “they” make us out to be, and thus it is my personal choice to prove them wrong.

I think the existance of the Jewish people as a free people far outways the Jewish State itself. The only reason i believe in israel is for the protection of the jewish people. Right now, israel is a danger zone. granted, some israelis say its not as dangerous as it looks, but it is. There is a constant threat. im not proposing we give up, im just saying that israel itself is not the most important thing, the people are.
As for America, we have way too much of a focus on them. As Americans, we cannot desert our own country in support of israel. Even though we are a superpower and seem like we are in a great situation, we still must not allow our country to go the wrong way, as it is now. It is incredibly unpatriotic to not vote for someone because of what you think their stance on israel is (unless they say something radical like they want the US to attack it). Most of the time, what you may think is a pro-palestinian position is acually more of a peaceful one. Vote for the candidate who will make America better, not Israel. Israel is its own country with its own leader and the israelis can make their decision by who they think will be better for israel, that is not our job. Our job is to elect a president who will do the best for our country.

Why do many people seem to think that voting based on israel means that we dont care about freedom, the jewish people or americas interests?
I happen to believe that the current candidate who would be best for israel would also be best for u.s. interests.

also, jimbo, your point neglects the issue that’s been raised by the vast majority of articles on this particular subject: american jews have traditionally aligned themselves with the democratic party because the democratic values speak to their values as jewish people — particularly values pertaining to the furtherance of social justice. the multitudes of jewish democrats that are switching to bush are doing so for no reason other than israel’s security. and that’s from the horse’s mouth.

“american jews have traditionally aligned themselves with the democratic party because the democratic values speak to their values as jewish people ”
why are you so into voting based on”values as jewish people”
Is voting based on religious values any better than voting on the basis of a foreign country.
For someone who so strongly opposes any mixing of religion and govt it seems odd that you would promote electing govt officials on the basis of your religious beliefs.

I’ve been reading this blog for some time and I’ve gleaned a good amount of insight, mostly by watching the slingfest that goes on in the comments pages. So, thanks for that.
That said, as as Israeli-born American citizen–and paranoid yid to boot–holding the good of my Israeli sisters and brothers is just as important as stem-cell research and my the many freedoms I’ve been saying ‘wait, come back’ to these past three years.
Mobius is correct in thinking that placing Israel as the central, and in some cases only, criterion when choosing a candidate is simply a bad thing to do. I’d say it’s just plain ignant (!). And yes, to some Americans, that ignorance taken as a sign of a “really bad” American.
But, your question is questionably weighted in your favor. Israel is not merely a “secular democratic state.” The reality of this issue is that there are 4 or 5 million yids residing in a certain place, and it’s the responsiiblity of Jews to care about the well-being of other Jews, whether they live in Israel or Cuba.
Mike: “The State of Israel is definately more important. If we lose that, the Jewish identity of the masses will slowly dissipate with each generation.”
The truth of that statements speaks more of the state of Judaism (qua religion) in this country (USA), than of the religious importance, i.e. uniqueness, of the secular nation state known as Israel. If the thought of a dissipating Judaism scares you, as it does me, then jump on the ball son and help prevent that. Learn, teach, motivate.
liberaljew: “Israel is its own country with its own leader and the israelis can make their decision by who they think will be better for israel, that is not our job. Our job is to elect a president who will do the best for our country.”
Yeah, and what planet is it that you live on? Hate to break it to ya, but the national isolationism that undergird’s your comment is a notion of a bygone age, i.e. pre-WWII. Neither the realties of foreign relations, nor economics as such has any room for such thinking. Whats best for this country (USA) is a complex of issues that inherently involves foreign relations, meaning that what’s good for us is very much reliant on what’s going on in country X, be it Israel, North Korea or Iceland (well, less Iceland…).
Aside from that, the issue of Jewish loyalty to a Jewish State, secular or otherwise, is lost in your comment. If you hold that Jews across the globe compose a single entity with common goals, then your domestic choices–which, again, are no longer purely domestic–must take into consideration those Jewish goals. If, on the other hand, you, as a Jew, see no connection between yourself (or American Jewry) and the Jewish people living in the nation state known as Israel, then your conscience, and Jewish self, are clean. If you hold the latter, well isnt that nice for you.

Chiming in late and quickly, but — What is more important? The state of Israel (note: not the messianic kingdom of David of biblical lore, but the secular democratic state of Israel), or Jewish peoples’ ability to live freely and without duress in the United States as well as any other country in which we choose to reside? — huh?
How does the premise of this question make any sense at all? Since when does it make either logical or political sense to say: a just foreign policy, democratic domestic governance, pick one? In other words: this has never been the either/or Mobius claims. The answer is both, and has to be both, because they go together.
This single issue thing is going to bite us on the ass. What single issue thing? Sorry, but this makes no sense. We just held an election here in Canada. Most Jews were concerned with each party’s policy on Israel. No Jews were concerned *only* with each party’s policy on Israel. ‘Cause, like, we’re not idiots.
Nor straw men, for that matter.

one
two
three
four
four
five
read those stories, then tell me if you don’t see a trend in “single issue” concentration

and sorry, two of those stories didn’t belong in that batch…i pulled the links out of the wrong windows

read those stories, then tell me if you don’t see a trend in “single issue” concentration
I’m afraid I don’t. Each of the (intentionally linked-to) stories is about how Jews align with different parties on different issues, and how those parties are working very hard to pull them one way or another.
The reason the parties have to work hard is because Jews aren’t single-issue voters. Mobius, you’ve at times decried what you see as an overly pro-Israel position among American Jews, and at other times pointed out that American Jews still vote overwhelmingly Democrat.
Surely that contradicts your Israel-and-nothing-but caricature of your fellow American Jews’ political thinking, yes?

Thenewguy: “Yeah, and what planet is it that you live on? Hate to break it to ya, but the national isolationism that undergird’s your comment is a notion of a bygone age, i.e. pre-WWII. Neither the realties of foreign relations, nor economics as such has any room for such thinking. Whats best for this country (USA) is a complex of issues that inherently involves foreign relations, meaning that what’s good for us is very much reliant on what’s going on in country X, be it Israel, North Korea or Iceland (well, less Iceland…). ”
First of all, while the diction of what you said may make it look like a good point, it is a bit of a waste. As a country we need to worry about our own welfare first and formost, and that includes our foreign policy, this is very obvious to anyone. I was never suggesting otherwise. But while relationships with other countries may be important, you cannot vote for a leader that will be better for another country and neglect your own country.
“Aside from that, the issue of Jewish loyalty to a Jewish State, secular or otherwise, is lost in your comment. If you hold that Jews across the globe compose a single entity with common goals, then your domestic choices–which, again, are no longer purely domestic–must take into consideration those Jewish goals. If, on the other hand, you, as a Jew, see no connection between yourself (or American Jewry) and the Jewish people living in the nation state known as Israel, then your conscience, and Jewish self, are clean. If you hold the latter, well isnt that nice for you.”
Questioning my loyalty to the Jewish homeland is an easy target. You feel that just because i dont choose candidates who will be best for israel, im not loyal. That is simply not true. I support israel (its people and its purpose, not nessisarily its current government) but i will not allow the destruction of my own country by voting for the wrong candidates. Especially since the large majority of the “pro-israel” candidates dont do shit for Israel, theyre all talk. I want people who are pro peace. At least they are doing something to acually help israel.
ck dave: “Why are you assuming that Jews that support Republicans are doing so because of a single issue?”
Well, you’re right. Not all Jewish Republicans are one issue people. But, it seems to me that a lot of those are lost causes. A lot of rich Jews are Republicans and are worried about taxes, and it really only perpetuates the stereotype that jews are cheap. And then there are the Jews who acually support such violations of civil liberaties as the Patriot Act and censorship. I find that goes against Jewish values, because it was that very same lack of liberties that led to the holocaust. Since the holocaust, Jews have prided themselves on being outspoken civil rights advocates, at least most have. So really, the answer to the question is that the one issue Jewish Repubs are the only ones who i can see with jewish values influencing them politically, even if it is a bit ignorant.

Liberal jew-
You could have cut out that whole post and simply left: “i dont agree with republicans.”
Because thats what your whole argument boils down to.

“A lot of rich Jews are Republicans and are worried about taxes, and it really only perpetuates the stereotype that jews are cheap. Say what you mean, then. You don’t think of Republican Jews as single-issue voters at all. Rather, you’re worried about a shande far di goyim — as to their positions on domestic policy.”
No, thats not what i mean. i feel that most Jews who vote republican are one issue voters. i think that stems from an ignorance that the republicans will be better for israel, but at least they have some excuse. I was saying that the jews who vote republican but are not single issue people are a lost cause and dont seem to be ifluenced by jewish values.
“You could have cut out that whole post and simply left: “i dont agree with republicans.”
Because thats what your whole argument boils down to.”
No, that had nothing to do with republicans. Obviously, i dont agree with them. But my post were about the two types of jewish republicans, as i stated above. Its not just me who disagrees with the republicans, Judaism’s teachings do too.

Abortion (Judaism may not favor the abortion itself, but it does favor choice), Gun control (abviously favors gun control as it can save lives), Gay marriage (opposes homosexuality itself, yet once again favors choice), religious freedom (ie, would oppose mandatory school prayer), war (Judaism promotes peace, and whole agree completely with those “hippie Jewish friends”), saving the environment (Tikun Olam, instead of destroying it, ie, ‘clear skies act’), civil rights, tax cuts for the poor (not the rich), freedom of speech, free universal health care, and many more issues. What it all boils down to is the main conceptual difference between Judaism and Christianity, choice. While the Torah may teach values (like not participating in homosexual activity) it would not agree with banning it. While Christianity may teach that you must do certain things to go to heaven and escape the firey pits of hell, Judaism teaches free will, and that we can choose our own path in life.

Jimbo,
The Torah forbids homosexual sex, but it does not forbid homosexuals. I know many republicans believe homosexuality is a choice and that it can be unlearned but that’s simply not the case. One either is or is not a homosexual, there’s no choice involved.
What’s interesting from a halachic perspective, is the notion that since a standard homosexual does not choose his orientation, he or she are simply born that way, one cannot assign any culpability to the resulting homosexual act. Ie, if you violate the sabbath as a result of a mental or congenital condition, you are not assessed a sin. Consequently, homosexual acts resulting from a condition that exists outside the purview of one’s choice ought not be sinful per se. But that’s just a notion I’ve been bouncing around to justify my support for gay marriage and stuff while still supporting halachah. Keep in mind too that the punishment for masturbation is also death. To borrow from our Christian friends if I may, “Let he who is without sin ….”
Moving right along, I recall G*d asking Cain where his brother was and Cain responding “Am I my brother’s keeper?” Rashi states that with that response G*d knew that Cain had killed Abel, because, to paraphrase, whosoever is not his brother’s keeper, it is as if he is his brother’s murderer. I see in that the kernel of the Liberal nature of Judaism. It really is no wonder Jews support the Democrats en masse.
And let me just say, this is not coming from some patchouli smelling hippie. I just call em like I sees em…

Ok, so let me get this straight. When tax cuts go to the wealthy, that makes sense. But when they go to the poor, all the sudden its charity. Judaism supports helping those less fortunate. Maybe you should brush up on your Torah.
The Torah does say that people should not participate in homosexual activities. But, gay marriage has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with rights. The Torah would agree with gay marriage, just maybe not gay sex.
“republican view: Doesnt support gay marriage. Doesnt encourage gay lifestyle, but doesnt punish for being gay. ”
First of all, that last statement is pure bullshit. Republicans don’t punish people for being gay? What about denying them rights?? What about exiling them from where they lived (which is what a law passed in a small town in the south dictated, although it was struck down in court)? Republicans do exactly that. They PUNISH people for being gay.
“Doesnt punish for simply being gay. but, gays cannot marry under jewish law. ”
That statement is also false. There is nothing in the Jewish text that prohibits gay marriage. The only mention of homosexuality has to do with sex. Plus, even if the torah did prohibit gay marriage, that would be in a religious sense, not a secular sense, and, there is a difference, for religious marriage does not grant rights like secular marriage does.
“Liberal View: Supports gay marriage, encourages gay lifestyle, supports gay rights. ”
Encourages gay lifestyle? What the hell does that mean. Liberals allow gays to live there own lives but by no means encourages it. Whens the last time a liberal went up to you and said, “how about trying out a gay lifestyle for a day?”
Once again, Judaism would agree with the liberals on this issue as well as all other the others i stated. And obviously, since it “doesn’t deserve a response,” you dont have one to give. There was nothing sillly about that post. I know its hard for a conservative to admit he’s wrong, but since you have no response, i guess thats the closet to conceding you will come.

CK, im not sure what anything (or at least most) you wrote had to do with my question. Try to respond to the points i make.
“But what really is wrong with 2 gay people who have made a commitment to each other benefiting from the rights and obligations that are accorded to straight people? Does it really make sense that a gay man who dies intestate has his assets devolve to his next of kin instead of to the man he spent his life with? These are all secular issues that have nothing to do with religion at all.”
What exactly was this addressing? I was discussing if gay marriage was consistent with jewish viewpoints. I never called it good or bad. Whether it hurts anyone or not is irrelevant to this discussion.
“The Torah also makes onanism, or masturbation punishable by death. So republicans should also be opposed to spilling seed no? The Torah calls eating seafood an abomination too (Leviticus 11: 9-12 and Deuteronomy 14: 9-11), why don’t the republicans ban shrimp?”
Which point of mine is this addressing? I dont recall saying that we should do what the torah does. Once again, i was just comparing jewish viewpoints with political ideology.
“You make this death penalty thing for homosexuality sound so… automatic. Jewish law dictates that the death penalty can only be metted out if there are 2 witnesses…”
i dont see what difference the procedural complications make. The fact that the punishment is death should make it quite clear the way Judaism views homosexual behavior. General rule, if the punishment is death, judaism usually doesnt view it favorably.
“Finally, the idea that anyone can “encourage” homosexuality is ridiculous. You either are or are not gay. If you are not gay, no amount of encouragement, short of a gun to your head, will make you be gay or engage in homosexual behavior. ”
First, i said “encourage homosexual lifestyle.” Second, you can encourage things without being successful.

oy.

8opus, obviously, there is no solid stance on any issue from the jewish perspective. Thats why jews argue so much. But there definately is as you said, more defendable stances.
“But wouldn’t you be better explaining why you think so on an issue-by-issue basis, and actually acknowledging that finding answers requires discussion?”
While i did it only briefly, i did explain each issue. If there is any issue you would like me to clerify, go ahead and ask. But i think we all know that Judaism favors life above all else (pikut nefesh) and that God doesnt not smite people just because they lose there faith in him or dont follow all the rules. With that in mind, it isnt hard to see that Judaism is a religion based on choice, which explains most of the stance on the issues i mentioned.

Sam, you have a good point about not taking the Torah completely literally. Judaism is a religion that has evolved with the times. Many of what the Torah says doesnt not apply any longer, for instance, we no longer sacrifice. Also, the reason we do not kill anyone for being gay anymore is because we have come to accept that the Jewish Authority has no place to give any punishment anymore. Back when the Jews were traveling in the desert together, the Torah was the law of the land. But today, we no longer have a religious government, we have a secular one (even in Israel, the government itself is pretty much secular). Therefore, we recognize that the laws of the government do not and cannot come from the Torah. So, why does it even matter what the torah says about homosexuality or gay marriage. Why should our religion interefere with our government? Why cant those who dont believe in the Torah or at least that part of the Torah get married? There is absolutely no reason any Jew should support the FMA or any bill prohibiting same-sex marriage. I have never heard one good reason for it. If you acknowledge that the Torah prohibits homosexuality, than you are acknowledging that an amendment such as the FMA is imposing our religious beliefs on others. Judaism has never stood for that.

“In Christianity however, there is a little thing called hell. So no, Christianity is not a religion based on choice. ”
“… under Judaism you do not get punished or executed for any offense”
So are you saying that, under Judaism, i can worship idols, kill people, and have gay sex, and not worry about ever being punished in any way, or worry about any consequences ever?
Wow, i guess you’re right, that would make Judaism a real religion of choice. Actually, it wouldn’t make it a religion at all.
Your brand of judiasm sounds fun!

“Judaism allows for you to do what you want, which means it will not stop you or punish you, but that doesnt mean you will still be Jewish. For example, according to Christianity, i will be going to hell, even though i dont believe in Christianity. But, Judaism doesnt dictate the opposite”
Let me make sure i understand you.
so youre saying that there are never any consequenses under judiasm if you go youre whole life killing people, or having gay sex?
So what exactly is the point of being jewish? what do you stand to gain if people who dont follow rules end up exactly as those who are righteous?

I don’t think the future of Jews in America really matters that much as Israel does..there’s something like a 53% intermarriage rate, so I say help Israel out as much as possible.