Mishegas

Why Online Israel Advocacy is Fux0r3d in '06

Wow. People sure are going batty over The General’s remarks about The JIBs. And even battier over Richard Silverstein’s remarks over at Tikun Olam. Let alone the thread over at Dov Bear’s.
Personally, I agree wholeheartedly with Dov Bear’s contention that websites which seethe hatred for Palestinians, and which callously ridicule the deaths of Palestinian solidarity activists, do little to advocate for Israel. Rather I think they cause greater harm to Israel and to the Jewish people by contributing to an incredibly nasty image of Israel’s supporters. That is why, out of the gate, I opposed the inclusion of LGF in the competition, and why I rose a stink about it during last year’s competition.
Does preaching hate to the hateful masses do anything to improve Israel’s image before its detractors? Does anyone honestly believe that “Rachel Corrie pancake” jokes turn anti-Zionists into friends of Israel?
While I get called a “self-hating Jew” and an “LLL moonbat” by right-wing bloggers and readers, Palestinian solidarity activists write things like, “Through [Mobius’] passionate writing about Israel not only have we come to see a different side of the country, but a different side of the people who live there.” The critical views for which my fellow Jews damn me have helped humanize Israelis and Israel’s supporters by showing that we are not a chorus of right-wing lunatics screaming for Arab blood.
Who, in the end, is truly a better advocate for Israel?
I do not for even a moment believe, as Richard Silverstein suspects, that the nomination or voting for the JIBs is rigged in any way. The simple proof is the fact that Jewschool, a site which often presents incredibly controversial views on Israel, won third place for Best Israel Adovacy Blog last year, much to others’ chagrin.
Aussie Dave may write and believe things which I think are just awful (and I know he feels the same about me), but there is no doubt in my mind that the JIBs — however flawed I think the nomination and voting system may be — are an entirely legitimate operation.
This year’s nominations and the poll leaders so far, speak much more, I think, to Jewish blog readership than towards the interests of Aussie Dave and his friends at Pajamas Media or the interests of The Jerusalem Post. The right-leaning blogs simply have a more committed readership, and I argue, a more obsessive and cocky readership than more secularly-oriented Jewish blogs like Jewschool.
It’s no secret that, in the past, the nasty comments left by some readers to Jewschool have driven contributors and readers away from the site. Most of our current readers ignore the comment threads all together, because they see the same bunch of ethnic nationalist and mishechist degenerates barking rude and cruel remarks on every thread. (This is why I recently began moderating comments — to reclaim the discourse from the self-righteous and socially inept.) This same bunch of self-appointed defenders of the religious Zionist status quo are also the quickest to make ad hominem attacks and to send hate mail to total strangers, making grandiose allegations filled with pure bile and hatred. They are the obsessed and obsessive who are “keeping close tabs” on me and others whom they perceive as haters of Israel.
It is to this group whom The JIBs matter most. They are the most active voters. They are the ones who race to make nominations. They are the ones who vote to vote against Jewschool. They are the ones who have voted LGF to the top of the Israel Advocacy list. To them, the web is nothing more than a battle ground in their war against everyone who doesn’t think like them. To most Jewish blog readers, blogs are a way to kill time at work. They could honestly care less about The JIBs: “It’s just a stupid online popularity contest. You don’t even win prizes. Who gives a shit?” Call it apathy, call it realism; whichever you prefer. Seeing Jewschool get bragging rights just isn’t important enough to them to spend who knows how many combined hours voting in a dinkly little online competition.
The only people this contest really matters to are those who are seeking the satisfcation of proclaiming that their ideology is most representative of the Jewish community. We already know it’s not. So it hardly matters.
Frankly, I think the most valuable thing we can get out of The JIBs would be a meaningful discussion about the efficacy of Freeper-style brownshirt attack tactics in promoting positive views of Israel and the Jewish community. It’s a shame “the Jewish people’s true defenders” won’t let us have one. Their “debate tactics” lead only to “navel-gazing on a tangent” that prevents any thoughtful conversation from ever taking place.
That’s what’s happening now as the brownshirts have begun bandying about allegations that a popular liberal Jewish blogger tipped-off Jesus General. The attack dogs are all amped up, looking to smear and defame him.
And that is apparently what passes for Israel advocacy in the Jewish blogging world. Forget about “agreeing to disagree” and “respecting others’ differences.” Smear, defame, decry and attack. But never get into a levelheaded discussion about complex issues. Never suspect you might not know everything or that your “opponent” is anything other than a brainwashed fool spewing Leftist propaganda. Never cede that you are anything other than the possessor of The Absolute Truth™.
You might just get caught with your pants down. And G-d forbid we should ever have an open, honest discussion about Israel.

49 thoughts on “Why Online Israel Advocacy is Fux0r3d in '06

  1. Having spent with you outside the digital medium, I know that you love Israel and the Jewish people and campaign tirelessly on their behalf, which includes calmly advocating for Israel in the kinds of places that LGFers come to only to flame, if at all. I would submit that by doing so, you may be more valuable for Israeli advocacy than most if not all of LGF’s thousands of attack lizards. And ain’t no right-wing blogger that can take that away from you.
    HOWEVER, that being said, maybe we should chill out on the “brownshirt” rhetoric? Obviously, yes, there are a lot of right wing bloggers that hate you, but so far they’re not coming into your home or attacking your server or anything. You know that you’re not a sinister lefty hate-monger who erodes Israel’s position in the world, but in the same way that mocking Rachel Corrie doesn’t do much to campaign for Israel, calling your haters brownshirts doesn’t do much to campaign for you. Seen, mi bredda?

  2. I agree with you Dan. I don’t see much of a difference between the comments on Stormfront and Little Green Footballs. Actually, I took it as a compliement when Charles banned my ass.

  3. I agree wholeheartedly. To me, right-wing Jews like the idiot Kahanists who celebrate the death of anyone — and I mean anyone — or advocate the killing of people — shame Israel. I can’t cite the source off-hand, but I believe the Talmud forbids celebrating a victory over an enemy. Any war or conflict is saddening. I view these Jews the same as I do Arabs or others who advocate the killing of Jews. It’s sickening and disgusting for a religion that celebrates life.

  4. I’m not going to defend every last comment by a right-winger on the net, but let’s get two things straight. First, the Right has no monopoly on spew. I’m trying to remember how often President Clinton during his eight years was compared to Hitler. A lot less than Bush has been during his five years. And some on the Left seem to have no problem calling others names like “Brownshirts”. Imagine that.
    Second, while some right-wing comments pass the boundaries of good taste (or worse), we need to remember that there is a war going on in which the enemy has no compunctions in who they murder, or how. The anger, and, yes, hatred against this enemy is fully justified. And it is reasonable to include among the enemy those who celebrate when the enemy commits its atrocities, and those who aid the enemy in any way.
    When you see a World War Two era poster that mentions “Japs”, you may not fully approve, but at the least you ought to understand that such posters, and the atmosphere they created, played an important role in sustaining the motivation to defeat the Axis. Could the war have been won without such crude propaganda? Probably, but it would be churlish to second guess the Americans of 1942, who didn’t have the benefits of a 2006 history book to tell them that they’d ulimately win.
    So while some of the spew is out of bounds, many of the jokes and remarks are passable, if not ideal. The Rachel Corrie pancake jokes are not in the best of taste, but aren’t crimes, either. Corrie deliberately endandered the lives of Israeli soldiers by keeping them in a dangerous area longer than they had to be, and served the propaganda interests of the murderers of our children. I for one am glad she’s dead, and I look forward to the rest of her compatriots sharing her fate.
    As for this-
    “Palestinian solidarity activists write things like, “Through [Mobius’] passionate writing about Israel not only have we come to see a different side of the country, but a different side of the people who live there.” The critical views for which my fellow Jews damn me have helped humanize Israelis and Israel’s supporters by showing that we are not a chorus of right-wing lunatics screaming for Arab blood.”
    Gee. Maybe if we all line up to beg these “solidarity activists” (try “apologists for murder”) to like us, they’ll finally recognize our humanity and stop the killing. The underlying assumption here is that there’s some good reason our humanity wasn’t recognized in the first place. Well, enough of that. The only way Israel will survive long-term is if its enemies become convinced that it cannot be cowed or defeated. The way to accomplish this is to beat them back, brutally, at each and every provocation, to the point that such retaliations become as predictable as the sunrise. Wake up. They aren’t going to love us no matter what we do. They can, however, be made to fear us. If the fear and retaliation can be sustained long enough that the Arabs’ ambitions to destroy Israel seem to them to become unattainable, we may finally see true peace.

  5. Sort of like trying to make the Germans realize that we are ‘human’ as they herd us into the cattle cars?
    Everyone has a different mission and set of talents in this life. I don’t think that they should be wasting them on trying to get the goy to like us more. The Muslims never, ever have to do that and the world is scared of them. Only the Jew needs to promote his image. Wake up please or at least watch your backs carefully. Work on promoting internal Jew-Jew peace before wasting time with the goyim. When the goyim realize that we are truly united, they’ll respect us, meanwhile…

  6. Josh-
    I can’t agree with your “goyim” point. My post above dealt with those non-Jews who hate and murder Jews. So while your German example is fine, it’s grossly unjust (and against our interests) to compare the haters and murderers to, say, American non-Jews. While morally speaking, Jews need not justify their existence to non-Jews, for practical purposes we at the very least do need to favorably impress the American voter (though this need not, and should not, be done in a servile way).

  7. Mobius,
    If you think that Israel advocacy is about convincing those detractors of the Jewish state that we’re ok, then you’re wrong. I worked in Israel advocacy ‘down in the trenches’ of UC Berkeley from 2000 to 2003. Effective pro-Israel advocacy focuses on those who haven’t made up their mind on the Arab-Israeli conflict, or who don’t have an opinion. We’re not out to waste our time by trying to convince those pro-Palestinian activists to like us and to agree with our side of things. That just burns our time and resources.
    So while you might make headway with pro-Palestinian activists because you are a progressive Jew, you’re not being too effective in terms of advocacy overall. By that, I mean reaching out to the “middle”, which doesn’t have a set opinion of Israel.
    With that said, I’m proud that you’re a Zionist. Of some sort. 😉

  8. Mobius says:
    Personally, I agree wholeheartedly with Dov Bear’s contention that websites which seethe hatred for Palestinians, and which callously ridicule the deaths of Palestinian solidarity activists, do little to advocate for Israel.
    Well, Mobius, we have to ridicule the enemy. The enemy attempts to sow fear into our hearts, and making fun of them alleviates that fear. We cannot be fearful of our enemies, if we are to deliver a crushing blow to them.
    Mobius says:
    Does preaching hate to the hateful masses do anything to improve Israel’s image before its detractors? Does anyone honestly believe that “Rachel Corrie pancake” jokes turn anti-Zionists into friends of Israel?
    Why in the world should anyone care about what the anti-zionists think? Does it matter what the nazis think? Does it matter what the klansmen think? Maybe you should try and get their perspective on the matter. It’s time we as Jews moved beyond trying to build up a positive image of ourselves in the eyes of people who hate us. It’s time for a militant, relentless and assertive defense of our people. (No less assertive than the attacks against our people.) By the way, I think that the Corrie jokes are fucking hilarious. I mean, what could be funnier than a stupid terrorist bitch jumping under a bulldozer? What is truly obscene is the fact that that worthless animal had the name of our mother Rachel.
    Mobius says:
    While I get called a “self-hating Jew” and an “LLL moonbat” by right-wing bloggers and readers, Palestinian solidarity activists write things like, “Through [Mobius’] passionate writing about Israel not only have we come to see a different side of the country, but a different side of the people who live there.”
    Wow, you have gained the sympathy of our enemies. How commendable. I suppose a Jew in the Middle Ages gained a similar kind of sympathy from his Gentile neighbors by converting to Christianity. Maybe you’ll get them to stop trying to destroy Israel now? Have you ever considered that the reason those delightful people like you is PRECISELY because you are a self-hating Jew?
    Mobius says:
    The critical views for which my fellow Jews damn me have helped humanize Israelis and Israel’s supporters by showing that we are not a chorus of right-wing lunatics screaming for Arab blood.
    Who, in the end, is truly a better advocate for Israel?
    Mobius, this may surprise you, but the world is a changing place. The Americans, the Europeans, the Australians, the Indians, the Russians and many, many others are starting to get fed up with moslem terrorism, violence, crime and ignorance. Your politically correct views will soon be as obsolete as the belief that the Earth is flat. What we as a people need to do to seize the momentum and join the global resistance against the encroaching moslem hordes. While the insane leftist hippies are still very prominent in academia and the media around the world, the situation will certainly change in the future. The problem with your “critical views” is that you confirm the slanderous accusations against Israel. You also condemn Israel for the MINIMAL actions it takes to stem the level of anti-jewish violence by the enemy. Furthermore, you are attempting to “humanize” Israel in the eyes of truly contemptible people. Your efforts lead to their legitimization and the horrific propaganda that they spread.
    BTW, I am not screaming for Arab blood, and neither are the overwhelming majority of right-wing Jews. We just want a pragmatic solution to the problem which is something that the Left has miserably failed to come up with. If you think about it, we are the genuine peace camp, because true right wing policies (not the kind of policies Israel has ever implemented) will lead to a realistic peace. Once the Arab countries have no ability to deliver a military strike against Israel, and once the hostile Arabs are out of Israel, there will simply be nothing to fight about.

  9. J: Rachel endangered soldiers by not allowing them to knock down Palestinian houses for no reason? She didn’t protect terrorist. She was defending the rights of ordinary Palestinians. You actually believe all Palestinians should be treated as terrorists and that is the problem.

  10. J: I also challange you to prove that ISM supported terror and if you can’t than you should admit your hatred of Corrie is irrational and unfounded. You often pose as a moderate, but given your inability to distinguish between Palestinians and Palestinian terrorist and your hateful comments and accusations toward Corrie I am beginning to question this presumption and others should as well.
    So far the only accusations of terror I have found origninate from known liars Richard Perle and David Frum.

  11. j, josh, sheikh, et al.: our “enemies” want civil, democratic, and economic rights; the ability to put food on their tables and send their children to school; to be compensated for the homes they lost or be given the right to return to them; and to be treated as human beings with moral decency. since we group them all together as terrorists instead, for the actions of their wildest elements, and use that fabrication as a pretext to deny them their rights, they become emboldened, resistant, frustrated, and violent. this is the obvious fact to the sensible members of the left, who you see as european antisemites lining up to light the fires of auschwitz. where you look at palestinians and see genocidal antisemites, i see desperate people grasping at straws. acknowledging that fact is not rolling over and saying, “kill me.” it’s recognizing that your narrative is insufficient and unable to adequately address the present conflict in any terms other than xenophobia and nationalism.

  12. Dameocrat Says:
    J: Rachel endangered soldiers by not allowing them to knock down Palestinian houses for no reason? She didn’t protect terrorist. She was defending the rights of ordinary Palestinians. You actually believe all Palestinians should be treated as terrorists and that is the problem.
    No reason? Are you sure? For one thing Corrie belonged to ISM – an organization that prides itself on impeding anti-terrorist operations by the Israeli army. The result could have been (and probably was) the chance that was given to the terrorists to escape the justice to be delivered by the IDF. By their actions ISM also probably contributed to enhancing the terrorists’ ability to conceal bomb-making labs and endangered the lives of Israeli soldiers. In other words, they supported the terrorists indirectly, sort like the way German companies indirectly participated in the Holocaust. That is not to say that there is no possibility that the ISM directly participated in terrorist atrocities against Israel, however they will surely deny it.
    But the real issue here is not the stupid girl named Rachel Corrie. The real issue is Rachel Corrie the symbol, ie the pure innocent American girl who sacrificed her life for the rights of poor, ancient “Palestinians”. It is this symbol that Israel-haters consistently and ruthlessly use to hurt and delegitimize the State of Israel and her armed forces. That is precisely why Rachel Corrie-the-symbol is the legitimate target of the jokes. Once Israel-haters stop using Rachel Corrie as their poster-child-martyr, there will be no need for such jokes.

  13. btw, that “terrorist bitch” was not defending weapons smuggling, she was defending the homes of palestinian civillians slated to be destroyed in a round of indiscriminate demolitions along the rafah border which led to the destruction of 2,500 homes, leaving 15,000 palestinians homeless.
    personally, after reviewing much of the evidence, i am left with the impression that corrie committed suicide beliving she could do more in death to help the palestinians than she could in life.
    that you gloat over her death bespeaks a total lack of humanity on your part, and indicates a general perception among pro-israel extremists that creates room for her death to be seen as a cold blooded murder. ie., you make it possible for others to portray jews as ruthless killers. and you’re okay with that. in fact, it’s what you seem to be demanding.
    again: bad israel advocacy.
    have you ever even met an ISM activist in the occupied territories? my flatmate last year — a rabbinical student — lived in ramallah with the head of the ISM for a month. what you know about the ISM is hardly enough to fill a thimble.
    what israeli propaganda calls anti-terrorist operations, the rest of the world calls collective punishment. which, btw, is a war crime.
    i’m sorry but you can’t base your understanding of this conflict on talking points from hasbara organizations.

  14. Mobius says:
    j, josh, sheikh, et al.: our “enemies” want civil, democratic, and economic rights; the ability to put food on their tables and send their children to school; to be compensated for the homes they lost or be given the right to return to them; and to be treated as human beings with moral decency.
    Mobius, there is one very good word that has been consistently used against the right wing “heretics” in the West, and that word is “Eurocentric.” That is precisely the word I am going to use to describe you. You are indeed Eurocentric, because you only want to view our Arab culture from your own Western perspective. You are only willing to compare the Arabs to yourself, you are not willing to acknowledge the fact that the things that they want may be totally different from what you want. You may want civil, democratic and economic rights, and they may want to die for Allah. You may want equality; they want to dominate of the other. They believe that their, and only their way of life is correct and they will do anything (including committing suicide) to force it on others. Of course there may be a significant proportion of their population that is indeed peaceful, and wants many of the things that you just mentioned. The question then becomes, what is the proportion of those peaceful, democracy-leaning Arabs to Islamofacists and Arab Nationalists. I can cite many surveys and statistics that show that the latter is the majority. However, let’s first look at it from different perspective. It is well known that a significant proportion of Germans opposed Hitler and his policies. Arguably, even those who voted for Hitler did not necessarily support a genocide against the Jews. However, at this point of history, we can say that there were definitely ENOUGH Germans who supported Hitler to perpetrate a horrific genocide against our people. Now, the question that I might pose to you at this point is, if the Arabs had sufficient power over us, would they do the same? If one takes into account the current trends in Arab societies, the answer would be a resounding YES. How did I reach this chilling conclusion? Well, for starters you might take a look at the video section of MEMRI.org http://www.memri.org/video/index.html Please, pay attention to the propaganda that is being disseminated through Arab media outlets. That propaganda is primitive even by Nazi standards, and definitely no less hateful. That is what the Arab masses are being fed with on a daily basis. In addition, there have been numerous surveys that indicate a strong support for suicide bombings which could easily be classified as acts of genocide. And also, don’t forget that the leader of the Palestinian Authority just happens to be a Holocaust Denier. I could go on with this for hours… Let me just cite a verse from a Moslem hadith that theoretically should give you some food for thought: “The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: ‘Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'” (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)
    Mobius says:
    since we group them all together as terrorists instead
    I have to disagree with you there as well. Most western governments and the Israeli government have been very careful to distinguish between the “good” Moslems and the “bad” Moslems.
    Mobius says:
    , for the actions of their wildest elements, and use that fabrication as a pretext to deny them their rights, they become emboldened, resistant, frustrated, and violent.
    Again, we have to ask what proportion of their population is represented by their “wildest element” Also, keep in mind that the kind of violence that we see perpetrated against Israelis is commonplace all over the Arab Middle East. That violence just could be a part of the culture; however, since we are enlightened and politically correct, we shall never acknowledge it.
    Mobius says:
    this is the obvious fact to the sensible members of the left, who you see as european antisemites lining up to light the fires of auschwitz. where you look at palestinians and see genocidal antisemites, i see desperate people grasping at straws. acknowledging that fact is not rolling over and saying, “kill me.” it’s recognizing that your narrative is insufficient and unable to adequately address the present conflict in any terms other than xenophobia and nationalism.
    There is absolutely nothing sensible about vicious, hostile anti-Israel propaganda that permeates the American and European media and campuses. The Rachel Corrie phenomenon is a good example of it. The “desperate people” argument has been overused and proven totally false. Many studies have shown that suicide bombers come from middle and upper-class backgrounds. The only thing they are desperate for is to die for Allah. Your narrative proves your inability to acknowledge both local and global trends and come up with an appropriate solution. In fact, anyone who is able to acknowledge it is going to fall under your category of “xenophobic.” Maybe, just maybe Jewish nationalism is going to provide the solution for the present conflict?

  15. Mobius says:
    btw, that “terrorist bitch” was not defending weapons smuggling, she was defending the homes of palestinian civillians slated to be destroyed in a round of indiscriminate demolitions along the rafah border which led to the destruction of 2,500 homes, leaving 15,000 palestinians homeless.
    Well, the ISM will certainly never admit that she was defending weapons smuggling. Good thing that you link to a leftist leaning “human rights organization.” It’d be nice if you also linked to a website that explains Israel’s side of the story, which surprisingly to most must exist.
    Mobius says:
    personally, after reviewing much of the evidence, i am left with the impression that corrie committed suicide beliving she could do more in death to help the palestinians than she could in life.
    Wow, dude… she really was a psycho… lol. The truth is that we will never find out the truth about her death, because it is shrouded in politics. For all we know she could have been killed in the Arab hospital, because she was a lot more useful to the Arabs dead then alive. Of course it’s only a speculation….
    Mobius says:
    that you gloat over her death bespeaks a total lack of humanity on your part, and indicates a general perception among pro-israel extremists that creates room for her death to be seen as a cold blooded murder. ie., you make it possible for others to portray jews as ruthless killers. and you’re okay with that. in fact, it’s what you seem to be demanding.
    Did Rachel Corrie ever show humanity to the victims of Arab terrorism? Or did she participate in actions that impeded Israel’s pathetic attempts to prevent the murder of Jews? What I am demanding is that everyone unconditionally recognizes Israel’s right to defend itself. The whole problem is that Israel’s attempts to defend itself are being used to portray the Jews as ruthless killers. And that is what I cannot and will not be “ok” with. In fact, your efforts to legitimize Arab claims go a long way to create the image of Jews as ruthless killers. I don’t gloat over the death of Rachel Corrie the person. However, the anti-Israel movement has turned her into a martyr. Now Rachel Corrie the martyr is a perfectly legitimate target for ridicule, because by ridiculing Rachel Corrie the martyr, we ridicule the entire anti-Israel movement. Making fun of Rachel Corrie is no more tasteless than using her as a symbol to dehumanize Israeli soldiers.
    Mobius says:
    again: bad israel advocacy.
    Again, it has never been my intention to improve Israel’s image in the eyes of the people who hate it.
    Mobius says:
    have you ever even met an ISM activist in the occupied territories? my flatmate last year — a rabbinical student — lived in ramallah with the head of the ISM for a month. what you know about the ISM is hardly enough to fill a thimble.
    I am sure many members of the Hitler Youth were adorable children who were simply taught weird ideas about race. I have never met a member of Hitler Youth, therefore what I know about them is hardly enough to fill a thimble.
    Mobius says:
    what israeli propaganda calls anti-terrorist operations, the rest of the world calls collective punishment. which, btw, is a war crime.
    The “world” once accused all Jews of being Christ-killers. Now that it’s politically correct and popular to chastise Israel, it’s perfectly all right. Incidentally, the anti-terrorist operations have saved the lives of many Jews, the very fact which our beautiful world naturally is unhappy about.
    Mobius says:
    i’m sorry but you can’t base your understanding of this conflict on talking points from hasbara organizations.
    Okay, the ISM is an excellent source for understanding this conflict. Hanan Ashrawi and Noam Chomsky are also good sources of information.

  16. Hey Mobius,
    I am not sure you realize the full implications of your “impression” of the circumstances of Rachel Corries’ death.
    You say:
    personally, after reviewing much of the evidence, i am left with the impression that corrie committed suicide beliving she could do more in death to help the palestinians than she could in life.
    First of all, according to that theory, she purposely threw herself under the bulldozer (which is consistent with the Israeli version of events). If she did, indeed, do it on purpose then she wanted to lay the blame of her death on the bulldozer driver who obviously (according to your theory) had no intention of killing her. In other words, she wanted an innocent man to be accused of murder. She was also aware of the fact that her friends would almost certainly accuse the driver of murder. And not only that, she knew that her death would be used to vilify Israel. In other words, her suicide was a publicity stunt designed to besmirch Israel’s name. Now, if that does not define a horrible person, I don’t know what does. It’s funny that you, who came up with that theory is of such a high opinion of her.
    Furthermore, you seem to be implicitly acknowledging that you know that after her alleged suicide, the heavy artillery of anti-Israel Propaganda would be used against the State of Israel. So, maybe, somewhere in dark, deep recesses of your mind you are aware of the terrible injustice that the anti-Israel movement is doing to Israel by spreading vicious, dehumanizing propaganda. If that is the case, then maybe, just maybe, you should immediately stop your anti-Israel activities and become a firm supporter of the besieged nation. In other words, you should do tshuva.

  17. I can’t find the link, but I read that what really happened with Rachel Corrie is that she was standing atop a high hill or wall of dirt, fell down, and was therefore unseen by the soldier who ACCIDENTALLY ran over her. I understand that the type of vehicle he was operating has a very narrow vision field, which further compounded the problem. But it was an accident. Anyone who thinks otherwise hasn’t a clue as to what kind of soldiers we have in this country. They are by and far some of the most heartbreakingly decent, moral guys in the world.

  18. SheikYahudi said:
    No reason? Are you sure? For one thing Corrie belonged to ISM – an organization that prides itself on impeding anti-terrorist operations by the Israeli army.

    and your proof of this is what?

  19. sheikh, you are a contemptable, disgusting, and scary person.
    i’m not carrying this conversation with you any further. your positions are morally reprehensible. and i’m not giving you a staging ground to drag them out further.
    btw, this is PRECISELY what i mean by obsessive — sheikh attempted to post his initial comment 12 times before i finally approved it over 24 hours later and he is now hovering on this thread — and “navel gazing on a tangent.” we are now caught up in the finer points of rachel corrie’s death rather than the fact that contemptable right-wingers with disgusting views like him are the only ones who care enough to vote in the JIBs.

  20. Mobius, I think Sheikyahudi makes a good point; if Corrie committed suicide, that introduces a whole new set of repercussions. I dont think it’s right to make this kind of sensational claim and not explain how you can back it up.

  21. Sheesh, I hope this doesn’t get me banned, but although SheikhYahudi is probably far to the right of me, I have to say that he presented some fairly strong and compelling points about numerous topics. It’s your right not to answer or to ban or to do whatever, but his comments show some smarts.

  22. Dameocrat, you should watch their videos where they brag about forming human chains in order to prevent the movement of the IDF.
    Mobius, you can insult me all you want, the thing is, there is no way you can argue with my logic. It’s funny that instead of attempting to defeat it, you have resorted to trying to embarass me. You are well aware, that I don’t post on your blog that often. However, when I do decide to waste my time on you, I do like to get my point across. I’m not a hedonistic, pathetic hippie like yourself. I do my work diligently and thoroughly, which is precisely why I attempted to post my original comment so many times. The other reason for my repeated attempts to post here was to see whether I could get around your attempts to censor me, which you were clearly trying to do. The reason for my last post is not so much to argue the “finer points of Rachel Corrie’s death”, but to attempt to expose the reality that you are well aware of, yet refuse to acknowledge. With that, adios. I won’t be posting here… for a while… Besides, you can always ban me from here, so you have nothing to worry about.

  23. Obviously, my site, The Muqata is the best Israel advocate possible 😉
    Advocacy is a function of your worldview in any case. Is Haaretz the ultimate Isarel advocate (ever hear a good word from Amira Hass or Gideon Levy?) Maybe the JPost…or Yediot? Or Meretz or Moledet?
    Each advocates their own world view.

  24. I don’t condone religious or political extremism in any form, so I can appreciate Moby’s thrash out against extremism expressed by what he terms as ‘contemptable right wingers’. That said, someone trying to set the record straight or express their views in a non-extremist way regarding Rachel Corrie or the ISM is hardly ‘navel gazing’. I also believe that folks like Dameocrat need to understand that for every instance of ‘liars’ on the right, there’s also a ‘liar’ on the left and that extremist views are not the sole preserve of the right.
    I may not agree with someone’s views, but I would categorise it as intellectually dishonest to not allow someone to present an opposing viewpoint. I’m an active supporter of Jewschool in general and Moby in particular, but if I did have a criticism it would have to be a lack of true balance. Seems to me that the inclusion of left, right, and centre views could propel Jewschool even further than it has gone so far.
    Just my two shekels worth.

  25. No one should need Jewschool to show them that all Israelis and/or Zionists are not monsters. All anyone needs to do is look at the polls that show that the average Israelis wants a two-state solution as long as their security can be guaranteed. There are also plenty of web sites and blogs of liberal and moderate Jews and Israelis all over the Internet. Anyone who only reads right-wingers is not looking very hard or wants their steretypes enforced.
    I feel that I am stuck in the middle of this argument in some ways. I don’t think that suicide bombings are exclusively or even mainly about desperation. They must be hopeful that their death would accomplish something or they are simply brainwashed. A psychiatrist who studied terrorists found that they were motivated to join terrorist groups for the similar reasons to reasosns that people join cults. Once one is a member, there is a sense of solidarity and bonding within the group and this as much as anything else motivates suicide bombers to go through with it.
    Mobius, you are also ignoring the hatred and antisemitism that pervades the entire Arab and Muslim world. I don’t know how Jews can prove that they are not part of a conspiracy if someone is determined to believe it. I doubt that even the end of the Palestinian – Israelis conflict will end this antisemitism because it is motivated by many things that have nothing to do with the conflict. It is much easier for a leader of an Arab or Muslim country to blame the Jews than to fix the economy.
    I don’t think that Jews should be celebrating anyone’s death, but you are turning Rachel Corrie into a martyr and I don’t think that she was a martyr. There is a middle ground. I don’t think that Israel should have bulldozed houses, but that does not turn Rachael Corrie into a martyr. She was more of a dupe of the ISM than a martyr.

  26. “you are turning Rachel Corrie into a martyr”
    I agree. After reading all the of arguements, seeing the photos, etc., it was clear that:
    1) When you walk into a military zone, you’re taking your own life into your hands
    2) Standing in front of, besides…an armored D9 Bulldozer in action aint’ the smartest place to be
    3) Was Corrie 100% sure that the home being destroyes weren’t:
    a) terrorist enabling homes
    b) homes used to launch terror attacks
    I doubt it.
    Corrie and the ISM are directly responsible for her death.
    “I don’t think that Israel should have bulldozed houses”
    I don’t think any of us, besides military personnel, can judge what we can/can’t do to prevent suicide bombers and katusha rockets from destroying whatever normative life Israelis currently have.
    If you ask ISM types how they’d handle the current conflict, the conversation quickly turns to: “Israel stole Arab land”. Super duper.
    “She was more of a dupe of the ISM than a martyr.”
    Exactly. It makes me sick to think of Jews who spend more time honoring her memory than Jews who’ve died, lost limbs, etc., during the many wars and campaigns of terror launched against them.
    And no, I don’t think you can do both at the same time.

  27. Mobius, I just reread sheikhyahudi’s post, the one which prompted you to call him contemptible, disgusting, and scary- and I must say you disappoint me. There was not one thing in that post which warranted any of those names. He actually made some very logical points. I wonder if you realized this as well, causing you to rethink your whole theory in the Corrie matter, which caused you some internal turmoil and made you resort to such name calling?
    Obviously this is your blog and you can do whatever you want. But however uneasy that post made you, it DID make sense, by any objective standard. I admit I have never been a fan of Corrie’s, but sheikh brought up a logic chain I had not even considered. Take a moment to think about it and maybe you’ll realize that what he said had some value.
    By the way, I do commend you for keeping this discussion head and shoulders above some other nasty ones out there on this subject.

  28. SheikYahudi:Dameocrat, you should watch their videos where they brag about forming human chains in order to prevent the movement of the IDF.
    The IDF is bulldozing the houses of Palestinians, and not because of terrorism either. They do it as an act of collective punishment.
    shtreimel: I agree. After reading all the of arguements, seeing the photos, etc., it was clear that:
    1) When you walk into a military zone, you’re taking your own life into your hands
    2) Standing in front of, besides…an armored D9 Bulldozer in action aint’ the smartest place to be
    3) Was Corrie 100% sure that the home being destroyes weren’t:
    a) terrorist enabling homes
    b) homes used to launch terror attacks
    I doubt it.
    Corrie and the ISM are directly responsible for her death.

    1)While it is true that going into a military zone to prevent an injustice in dangerous, it is also clear that Israelis don’t have the will power to stop this awful behavior legally. Futhermore the media ignore the numerous deaths of Palestinians who have had there homes bulldozed for no reason.
    2)Standing in front of the tank at Tienamin Square wasn’t smart, but it was right.
    either, nor was it smart to be a freedom rider in the 60s.
    3)I am not sure your home harbors no terrorists. Do I have a right to bulldoze it?

  29. You are indeed Eurocentric, because you only want to view our Arab culture from your own Western perspective. You are only willing to compare the Arabs to yourself, you are not willing to acknowledge the fact that the things that they want may be totally different from what you want. You may want civil, democratic and economic rights, and they may want to die for Allah. You may want equality; they want to dominate of the other. They believe that their, and only their way of life is correct and they will do anything (including committing suicide) to force it on others. Of course there may be a significant proportion of their population that is indeed peaceful, and wants many of the things that you just mentioned. The question then becomes, what is the proportion of those peaceful, democracy-leaning Arabs to Islamofacists and Arab Nationalists. I can cite many surveys and statistics that show that the latter is the majority.
    I can show you that, statistically, Palestinian support for violence against Israel rises during times of extreme hardship and drops when Palestinians see hope for stability on the horizon. My statistics come from Khalil Shikaki, the only pollster with the support of both the PA and the Hebrew University, whose impartiality and commitment to the confidentiality of his polling subjects has made him a target of Al Aqsa Brigades, Hamas, and other militant groups. Yours come from who, with what agenda?
    A perfect example supporting my position is Al Aqsa Brigades’ Zaqaria Zubeidi, formerly the #1 most wanted terrorist, and now a top cop in the Palestinian Authority. Zubeidi is on record stating that if we were to withdraw from Jenin and let the people breathe that he would lay down his weapons. Making good on his word, he most recently negotiated the surrender of a wanted terrorist to Israeli authorities.
    My friends do peacework with Palestinians, Israeli Arabs, and Bedouin throughout haaretz. The hundreds, if not thousands, of individuals they work with all generally present to them the same complaints and express the same desires — those which I have already stated. Do you mean to say there is a massive conspiracy on the part of the Arabs of this land to deceive all peaceworkers? Dozens of warring factions and family clans and they’re all working together to pull the wool over our eyes? They are so coordinated and well-indoctrinated that they could pull that off? Most mumble, “If I speak up I will be killed.”
    That’s why Hamas is winning elections. Not because people support their violence, but because people want regime change and Hamas is presently their only viable choice. There are new movements and parties on the horizon, however. With Fatah out of the picture, they may stand a chance.
    It is well known that a significant proportion of Germans opposed Hitler and his policies. Arguably, even those who voted for Hitler did not necessarily support a genocide against the Jews. However, at this point of history, we can say that there were definitely ENOUGH Germans who supported Hitler to perpetrate a horrific genocide against our people. Now, the question that I might pose to you at this point is, if the Arabs had sufficient power over us, would they do the same? If one takes into account the current trends in Arab societies, the answer would be a resounding YES.
    I had this chat with CK just yesterday. I said, “It seems it’s never okay to compare anyone to Nazis except for Palestinians. Then no one has a problem. ” CK said, that’s not true, and that he’d condemn any comparison across the board. CK, I’m calling on you now: Stand up and condemn the comparison.
    If the Palestinians were granted full autonomy and permitted to rush our borders, I have no doubt that there would be immense bloodshed. That’s because peace can only be achieved through diplomatic negotiations and reparations. Hence why I reject unilateralism.
    I do not for a moment disbelieve in the voracity of antisemitism in this world. You forget I am the grandchild of four Holocaust survivors and that I sued my own high school for creating an environment conducive to antisemitism. I have been a student of radical anti-racist and anti-fascist groups. I study media theory. I’m a “scion” of Rushkoff, remember?
    So I wonder, do state-sponsored media, political leaders, and religious leaders speak for their people? Does corporate media speak for its consumers? Or are they just part of a propaganda controls?
    These are illusions that can be shattered, in the most Abrahamic of means.
    I believe Antisemitism is a social disease. It is an irrational response to poor social conditions coupled with culturally inhereted prejudices. These prejudices are the result of political scapegoating. They are a very present realiy and it is an issue which must be addressed. And I believe it can be addressed, and that antisemitism and racism of all forms can be eliminated from society. However, in the case of the occupation, Israel is not just a scapegoat. Israel is very much a guilty party. Only those blinded by ethnocentrism, nationalistic fervor, and religious determination can remain oblivious to the great suffering caused by our campaign of dispossesion. Those who look upon the misery of Palestinians with glee, and call their well-intentioned defenders “terrorist bitches” only worsen our lot.
    Until we clean up our hand, what lies are there for people to see through? Who can stand up and self-honestly say to their leaders, “It is not them! It is you!”
    Let me just cite a verse from a Moslem hadith that theoretically should give you some food for thought: “The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: ‘Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!’” (Sahih Bukhari 004.52.176)
    The Hadith is only as binding as The Talmud. How many pathways have you spotted through halakha?
    I have to disagree with you there as well. Most western governments and the Israeli government have been very careful to distinguish between the “good” Moslems and the “bad” Moslems.
    Yuh huh, 3,000 dead Iraqi civilians and thousands of illegal detainments in Israel and the US. And the Israeli “ninjas” driving around checking Arab IDs. Very distinguished.
    Again, we have to ask what proportion of their population is represented by their “wildest element” Also, keep in mind that the kind of violence that we see perpetrated against Israelis is commonplace all over the Arab Middle East. That violence just could be a part of the culture; however, since we are enlightened and politically correct, we shall never acknowledge it.
    Out 7,000,000 Palestinians, if 70,000 were terrorists, it would be .01% of the Palestinian population. The number of those killed and those in prison combined is about 7,000 — .001%.
    Out of a billion Muslims in the world, if .01% of them are terrorists (and it’s probably more like .001%), that means there are 1,000,000 terrorists in the world. 1,000,000 terrorists, 13,000,000 Jews, and 7,000,000,000 people on earth.
    I don’t give the terrorists good odds; especially if we band together to work for human rights and social justice throughout the world. Propaganda loses effectiveness when falsehoods can no longer be held up.
    The “desperate people” argument has been overused and proven totally false. Many studies have shown that suicide bombers come from middle and upper-class backgrounds.
    And here the Kumah-type YU yuppie cum settler regards himself as an anti-materialist.
    The middle and upper-classes are always where the radical self-sacrificers come from. They are Siddharthas rejecting their lot to take up the struggle of the poor and downtrodden. Many of us are familiar with the archetype of the priveleged white liberal activist trying to relate to the issues of disadvantaged people of color. Rachel Corrie was middle class. I’m from upper-middle class. Che Geuvara went to med school. The Kumah/Arutz Sheva/Hevron/Kahane guys are all Teaneckers and YU students, who are being “radical” in their own way. The middle class wants a revolution. The poor just want to be middle class. Hence who are the activists? Those with the privilege to be activists. Who is a suicide bomber? Those with the privilege of being suicide bombers. Most Palestinian parents can’t afford to lose their children. Who do you think helps pay the rent, selling lighters on the midrachov, or working as waiters?
    The only thing they are desperate for is to die for Allah. Your narrative proves your inability to acknowledge both local and global trends and come up with an appropriate solution. In fact, anyone who is able to acknowledge it is going to fall under your category of “xenophobic.” Maybe, just maybe Jewish nationalism is going to provide the solution for the present conflict?
    This is what I decry as contemptable. You are desperate for them to want to die for Allah. It justifies your deplorable beliefs.
    Well, the ISM will certainly never admit that she was defending weapons smuggling. Good thing that you link to a leftist leaning “human rights organization.” It’d be nice if you also linked to a website that explains Israel’s side of the story, which surprisingly to most must exist.
    The Israeli government itself never stated that she was defending weapons smuggling. She was defending a house slated to be destroyed as part of the operation to create a “security buffer” along the Rafah border. The alleged cause for the “buffer” was weapon’s smuggling along the border, but now after they’ve discovered dozens of new tunnels months after the demolitions, it’s been proven — as it was stated by the entire international human rights community during the operation — that the procedure was entirely ineffective. Instead, it made 15,000 people homeless and the entire Palestinian community all-the-more livid, creating new impetus for terror.
    I would love to give you the original link from the MFA’s website on which I learned that Israel did not claim that she was defending a house hiding a smuggling tunnel, but it’s no longer online. What is online is TONS of political spin from hardcore right-wing and left-wing fanatics. But the government’s official position, before it reached our Bill O’Reillys is no longer online. Just hotheaded righties screaming, “She was defending a house hiding a smuggling tunnel,” with absolutely no facts to back the statement up.
    “There’s a war on Christmas!” Prove it.
    Did Rachel Corrie ever show humanity to the victims of Arab terrorism? Or did she participate in actions that impeded Israel’s pathetic attempts to prevent the murder of Jews
    She chose the injustice that she saw greater.
    What I am demanding is that everyone unconditionally recognizes Israel’s right to defend itself. The whole problem is that Israel’s attempts to defend itself are being used to portray the Jews as ruthless killers. And that is what I cannot and will not be “ok” with. In fact, your efforts to legitimize Arab claims go a long way to create the image of Jews as ruthless killers.
    I haven’t heard anyone ever deny Israel its right to defend itself. Ending the occupation and permitting for the civil and democratic rights of Arabs is not a call for Israel’s destruction nor for the death of the Jewish people. It certainly complicates the issue of Jewish ethnic supremacy in Israel. I believe you’ve already made the case that an integrated society in Israel would lead to our genocide at the hands of the Palestinians. But that’s not an argument I buy.
    I don’t gloat over the death of Rachel Corrie the person. However, the anti-Israel movement has turned her into a martyr. Now Rachel Corrie the martyr is a perfectly legitimate target for ridicule, because by ridiculing Rachel Corrie the martyr, we ridicule the entire anti-Israel movement. Making fun of Rachel Corrie is no more tasteless than using her as a symbol to dehumanize Israeli soldiers.
    You don’t impress anyone with your ridicule of her martyrdom. You just give them deeper convictions about their misperceptions of Jews.
    Again, it has never been my intention to improve Israel’s image in the eyes of the people who hate it.
    I call that a chilul Hashem.
    I am sure many members of the Hitler Youth were adorable children who were simply taught weird ideas about race. I have never met a member of Hitler Youth, therefore what I know about them is hardly enough to fill a thimble.
    Pope Ratzinger was a member of the Hitler Youth. Yeah, you know, the one who condemned antisemitism yesterday.
    The “world” once accused all Jews of being Christ-killers. Now that it’s politically correct and popular to chastise Israel, it’s perfectly all right. Incidentally, the anti-terrorist operations have saved the lives of many Jews, the very fact which our beautiful world naturally is unhappy about.
    The Talmud brags about killing Jesus and his disciples. We used to light effigies of Jesus in the public square on Purim. We have along history of persecuting Christians ourselves. We just trashed a Messianic synagogue in Be’er Sheva. We spit on a Greek bishop. Hatred doesn’t happen in a vaccuum. You could take it back to the Romans, if you want. Who brought about our destruction then, and the introduction of antisemitism to Catholocism?
    The zealots. Guys like you.
    First of all, according to that theory, she purposely threw herself under the bulldozer (which is consistent with the Israeli version of events). If she did, indeed, do it on purpose then she wanted to lay the blame of her death on the bulldozer driver who obviously (according to your theory) had no intention of killing her. In other words, she wanted an innocent man to be accused of murder. She was also aware of the fact that her friends would almost certainly accuse the driver of murder. And not only that, she knew that her death would be used to vilify Israel. In other words, her suicide was a publicity stunt designed to besmirch Israel’s name. Now, if that does not define a horrible person, I don’t know what does. It’s funny that you, who came up with that theory is of such a high opinion of her.
    Or from what I suppose was her perspective, as I’ve garnered from reading her letters to her parents empathizing with martyrdom: I have a chance right now, to bring the eyes of the entire world to the injustice that’s being committed against these people. She probably didn’t stop to think of the repercussions. She probably didn’t stop to think “He will be accused of murder.” Her only thought was “I must sacrifice myself for this cause.” I see it more in line with self-immolation, in the manner that Buddhist monks have committed suicide, or those pitiful few who did the same to protest the disengagement. To the spiritual activist, the idea of self-immolation is romantic. This is a picture of a hero. It may be a warped view in your estimation. It’s certainly not a Jewish view. Except in the case of profaning God’s name. You can allow yourself to be killed, rather than allow yourself to defy God. For some, they would rather die than allow their fellow human manifestation of God to be profaned. It’s the ahimsa jihad of the non-violent shihadi.
    Furthermore, you seem to be implicitly acknowledging that you know that after her alleged suicide, the heavy artillery of anti-Israel Propaganda would be used against the State of Israel. So, maybe, somewhere in dark, deep recesses of your mind you are aware of the terrible injustice that the anti-Israel movement is doing to Israel by spreading vicious, dehumanizing propaganda. If that is the case, then maybe, just maybe, you should immediately stop your anti-Israel activities and become a firm supporter of the besieged nation. In other words, you should do tshuva.
    Your logic works like this: “The Arabs hate us and want to kill us. If we give them civil rights and democratic rights, they will outnumber us, outvote us, and then vote to push us into the sea.” So where I hear, “End the occupation! Give Palestinians civil and democratic rights,” you hear, “Destroy Israel! Kill the Jews!” All I can say is, most people just want to eat. And .01% maybe want to die for Allah. And a lot of them, as Susan notes, just want to belong.
    Mobius, you can insult me all you want, the thing is, there is no way you can argue with my logic.
    I just argued with your logic.
    I’m not a hedonistic, pathetic hippie like yourself.
    I’m a hippie skull cracker yo. Crusty punk. We tore down the fence at Woodstock.
    The other reason for my repeated attempts to post here was to see whether I could get around your attempts to censor me, which you were clearly trying to do.
    I’m just sick of giving a staging ground to your deplorable views. I truly see them as a chilul Hashem and I think they give more ammunition to our “enemies” than you see.
    As a free people, taken out of Egypt by God and given a Torah, we have the means to liberate others. That’s our charge in the world. If we truly committed ourselves as a people to ending poverty and oppression wherever it exists, we could do it. With words and deeds, we could set free the world. But what visions do we, as a people, invest ourselves in instead? Cash money and apocalyptic eschatology?
    Through Torah, through tzedakah, through social action, through strikes, through protests, through political lobbying, through selective trade agreements, through sanctions, through covert ops, through whatever necessary means, we can do our part to put an end to injustice everywhere and anywhere in the world.
    If you believe in miracles, how come you don’t believe in this miracle? How come you don’t invest your kavanah in this? Why do you invest it in bloodshed instead? My vision of Moshiach is a great scholar, knowledgable in all sacred texts and sacred tongues. He is a Warrior of the Rainbow. By merit of his Torah alone, whether spoken to us in lashon koydesh, or to goyim in the words of the New Testament and the Quran, he is a peacemaker, his words capable of breaking all boundaries. They are words that will spread through the world like a blazing fire.
    And he brings 1,000 years of peace.

  30. “I believe Antisemitism is a social disease. It is an irrational response to poor social conditions coupled with culturally inhereted prejudices. These prejudices are the result of political scapegoating. They are a very present realiy and it is an issue which must be addressed. And I believe it can be addressed, and that antisemitism and racism of all forms can be eliminated from society.”
    Antisemitism has many “causes” and many manifestations. During and after the Enlightenment, you had a fad for antisemitism in middle-class and elite European circles. You have a number of deluded and misguided American middle-class students, academics, and others who deny Israel its right to *exist*, in any form. If you look at who inspired anti-Jewish riots before creation of Israel, you’ll find people who are far from poor but with an ideological agenda of their own. Who inspires antisemitism across the Arab world? The leadership interested in distracting the population from the lack of civil liberties and from various internal problems. And guess what – you have a number of “sympathizers”, who know nothing about the Middle East, who’ve never even visited the territories, but who are ready to blame everything on the Jews. Because it’s convenient. Sometimes poverty is a contributing factor to anti-Semitims, but I think it’s a little naive to believe it’s the one and only explanation for it.

  31. “poor social conditions” does not amount to poverty alone. it could mean poor education, lack of social services, a failure of the justice system, inequity, inequality, alienation, low-self esteem… not everything is about money.

  32. Sorry Mobius, but Khalil Shikaki also noted that support for suicide bombings reached 73% at one point during the war THEY started. In fact, that war is very telling and completely refutes your premise. You see, their situation was much improved: the Israelis were out of Areas A; the PA was in control of virtually all the Palestinians; they were getting international aid; they were armed sufficiently to have a police force. What happened? Suicide bombings increased in scope and number, culminating in the orgy of murders in March, 2002.
    Oh, did I mention that for the first time since 1947 the Palestinians were offered a state?
    In other words, their situation improved and they took advantage not to make peace or to develop democracy. Nope, they attacked more violently. The Israelis weren’t even in Areas A any more but they attacked.
    What I noted from your long response to the Shaikh is that you evaded the one key subject that really matter – the elephant in the middle of the room – they want land upon which Israel sits. You can claim they don’t and that they would be satisfied with a compromise, but that is false and we’ve learned that it’s false when even during tha Taba negotiations their positions did not change whatsoever from their positions at Camp David.

  33. the “process of normalization” under oslo created the checkpoint system, the road closures, the termination of palestinian work permits, an upramping in settlment construction and the implementation of myriad policies which completely made oslo look like nothing more than a lie in the eyes of the palestinian public.
    if you were “the middle” you’d have as many words for sheikh yehudi as you do for me. but you don’t, and do you know why? because you’re a phony centrist right-winger.

  34. Fair criticism regarding TM’s lack of adressing some of Sheikh Yehudi’s more extremist views, but…OUCH. Moby, why do you insist on attacking people with a view counter to yours as ‘right wingers’, often describing them as having ‘deplorable views’? C’mon mate…there’s been some really intelligent discourse throughout this comment thread without having to resort to that.
    And for the record, Sheikh Yehdui’s namecalling isn’t acceptable either.

  35. Fair enough, I didn’t comment on the Shaikh’s comments. However, I did note they were to the right of my views.
    Your response to my comment is to say that Oslo made things worse for the Palestinians. Perhaps it did, but that again was the design of the Palestinians, not the Israelis. If you consider the manner in which they used suicide bombings to influence elections. Or the manner in which they used rhetoric in international fora even as they were supposedly negotiating for peace. Or if you look at their media and the manner in which they attacked Israel (if they even called it that), you come away with the inescapable conclusion that increased separation from Israel was their own doing.
    Now I have to add that it’s easy to blame Arafat and the leadership, but as the polls showed, the street supported the fighting and wars.
    You keep evading the basic problem with your thesis. They and the Israelis are fighting over the same piece of land. If that is the case, then even when economic times improve considerably, the conflict will not be over. Just so you know, I’ve argued this position as well, that as the economy improves, most Palestinians will come to terms with their new status and strive to build their lives. The problem is that they do not seem willing to take the steps necessary to become a state and I think it’s because they wish to avoid closing the option of one day usurping the Jews in Israel.
    As for the labels, feel free to call me a brownshirt, a right winger, a lapsed progressive, and evil-doer, a lousy Zionist, or whatever. That’s all fine and good. You should know, however, that there are probably superior forms of therapy out there.

  36. i’m not resorting to name calling! what sheikh yedhui believes is apalling and digusting and ANYONE outside the jewish community is able to see that without hesitation! what he believes is SICK and disturbed!
    and the rest of you give him ground to stand on! you make what he thinks okay!
    and as far as calling the middle a phony centrist, i’m not saying that to name call either, i’m saying that because, he claims to be the center. but for him, right-wing (not extreme right-wing, but right-wing) is the center.
    as per “they want the same land” — when you give them civil rights, that ceases to be an issue. because they’ll have “their” land. and we’ll have it too.

  37. They can have all the civil rights they want. They can have those civil rights in a Palestinian state, not a Jewish one. Why not a Jewish one? Because we have a right to self-determination. I find it incredible that I should have to keep restating this, but frankly, this is where all the “progressive” criticism has brought us – to having to justify the existence of a perfectly legitimate existence.
    You can see in Gaza where their civil rights are. Israel isn’t in there at all at this point. Yet, take a look. For many reasons, the West Bank (Judea and Samaria, for those who prefer) will be harder to give them, but especially in view of how things in Gaza are playing out.
    Oh, did I mention the Palestinians were offered a state in 2000?
    By the way, you can label my politics any which way you’d like, but I am fairly confident that I’m a creature of the center with respect to this conflict. Two state solution; the right to a normal life for the Palestinians in a state they can call their own; sympathy for those Palestinians caught in the crossfire of a much larger conflict; a strong desire for peace combined with a willingness to give up a great deal to achieve it.
    What I’m not, however, is naive enough to think that walking around proclaiming that Israel commits war crimes is doing a mitzvah or belongs in the category of Israel Advocacy. Quite the opposite.

  38. I find it incredible that I should have to keep restating this, but frankly, this is where all the “progressive” criticism has brought us – to having to justify the existence of a perfectly legitimate existence.
    The Jewish right to sovereignty and self-determination is entirely legitimate. But what is legitimate about disposessing and disenfranchising an entire people in order to obtain that sovereignty and self-determination?
    You say you favor two states — where are you to protest settlement expansion? Where are you to demand the Israelis stop destroying moderates who are trying to challenge Fatah and Hamas (on which I’ll have a full story sometime next week)? Where are you to condemn Israel’s destruction of civil infrastructure in the territories? Where are you to condemn the closures which prevent Palestinian society from functioning? How can there be a Palestinian state if we refuse to negotiate with the PA because it doesn’t clamp down on militant factions it can’t clamp down on without instigating a civil war? And how can you possibly say that they’d have believed a single word out of our mouths in terms of statehood when, as I said, we increased settlement expansion and installed checkpoints and terminated work visas during those very negotiations? We were promising them the sky while kicking them under the table.
    What I’m not, however, is naive enough to think that walking around proclaiming that Israel commits war crimes is doing a mitzvah or belongs in the category of Israel Advocacy.
    Defend indiscriminately bulldozing 2,500 homes, making 15,000 people homeless and killing hundreds in the process (including three foreign anti-occupation activists). Tell me how your defense of those actions makes you look like anything other than a monster in the eyes of everyone who is not ragingly pro-Israel. Owning that and working to preventing it from ever happening again is a mitzvah. Excusing it is nothing less than disturbing.

  39. Defend indiscriminately bulldozing 2,500 homes, making 15,000 people homeless and killing hundreds in the process (including three foreign anti-occupation activists).
    Um, this statement is full of inaccuracies. Do you need me to correct you or are you going to correct yourself, Mr. Israel Advocate?

  40. the demolitions along the rafah border in the creation of the israeli “security buffer” led to the destruction of 2,500 homes, leaving 15,000 people homeless. during this mass demolition operation, which transpired over the course of four years, riots and and gunfights erupted which resulted in hundreds of deaths. and i’m sorry, you’re right, in that time, only two international activists were killed in rafah: tom hurndall and rachel corrie. the third was killed in jenin.
    or did you think i was talking about the demolition of unpermitted structures in east jerusalem & the west bank?

  41. Um, from your vaunted HRW (how did they vote in Durban, Mobius, and why?): “Unless otherwise stated, statistics for homes demolished and persons rendered homeless were provided by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) based mostly on assessments by its social workers.”
    Wow, a real trustworthy source they used. Remember Peter Hanson, former head of UNWRA? Here’s what he said to the CBC, “Oh I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll and I don’t see that as a crime. Hamas as a political organization does not mean that every member is a militant and we do not do political vetting and exclude people from one persuasion as against another.”
    Take a look at this article by the Christian Science Monitor: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1029/p07s01-wome.html
    The Rafah Governorate says Israel has completely demolished more than 1,200 houses, including 266 in this month’s incursion. Israel’s tally for this month is closer to 45, the officer says. “Wherever we found a tunnel, the house was demolished. Every house that was involved in shooting against the forces was demolished.”
    Hmmmm, trustworthy numbers. By the way, the same incident had UNWRA counting 88 demolished houses while the IDF said 40. Later, UNWRA revised its statement down to…45.
    That CS Monitor article has an anonymous Israeli officer telling them that houses were destroyed if they were abandoned or had tunnels inside them. Hmmm, he must be lying because Human Rights Watch (how did they act at Durban and why?) says so…on the basis of information given them by workers at UNWRA.
    Yes, you got the number of dead wrong, as well as how they died. You also gave the false impression the dead were just killed as part of some maniacal home demolition spree by the Israelis. That is false, of course.
    You got “indiscriminately” wrong.
    You got “hundreds killed in the process” wrong.
    You got the “15000 homeless” wrong. You also got that one out of context.
    Basically, you got it all wrong in a frantic attempt to make a point. And you went to another, heavily trafficked site, and proclaimed that not only was this done by Israel but it constitutes a war crime.
    Bravo, Mobius! You are a true advocate for peace, reconciliation, truth and justice. Yup, you must be a progressive.

  42. Mobius, nobody here is saying that homes weren’t being demolished. I claimed your numbers are wrong and the insinuation that somehow deaths were caused because of this was wrong as well. Also, although they have destroyed homes – not as part of any policy – that should not have been destroyed, for the most part, homes were destroyed because of military necessity such as the smuggling of arms.
    That makes all the difference in the world.
    I am glad to see that you’re not challenging the other points any more.
    I think what I’m trying to tell you is that we have a fundamental disagreement about what is best for Israel. You think that ongoing mea culpas, even when unwarranted, and self-immolation will somehow represent us as good people to the rest of the world and will even open a dialogue with moderate Palestinians.
    I say that while we should acknowledge our faults, honesty and truth should guide us, not making a good impression on other folks. If something nasty that happens in a war is justified, then maybe it’s nasty, but there is no reason to apologize. The Israelis have a lot to be sorry about, but this is a war and they are doing their best to protect their country and people.

  43. Dan: I think you’ve misunderstood my views about JIBA & if any imprecision in my language contributed to that I’m sorry:

    I do not for even a moment believe, as Richard Silverstein suspects, that the nomination or voting for the JIBs is rigged in any way.

    When I used the word “rigged” I didn’t mean in the literal sense of stuffed ballot boxes and vote tamerping, etc. Contrary to what Aussie Dave believes, I don’t believe he is “corrupt” (a term he accused me of).
    Rather, I meant that if you are a hardline ideologically right-wintg blogger (as he is) affililiated with a lg. group of equally hardline Jewish bloggers (& throw the insane reach of LGF into the bargain) you’re naturally going to have a self-selected “coalition of the willing” involved in JIBA. They’re ea. going to vote for ea. other. Some of ’em have to win.
    I think it’s great that you, New Zionist, Velveteen Rabbi & others are competing & I’ve voted for those JIBA nominated blogs I know & respect like yours.. But face it. With 100,000 visitors a day (at least that’s what LGF claims its readership is), how can you or I compete?
    If you do no outreach to anyone outside the LGF/Jerusalem Post Jewish universe why would anyone outside it even know or care about it (& the J. Post representative said explicitly that promotion was to J. Post readers only)?
    When you have a competition like that you don’t have to rig it. You’ll win every time by making yr best effort to have all your like-minded ideological friends pitch in to do their “share” for the cause.

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